Brexit

[Grandad]

We have all steared clear of this subject to avoid political disagreement, no doubt
I think the process is beyond party politics which is evident with the cross party opinions on the terms of us leaving the EU.
I voted to leave because I honestly believe that we will be better off managing our own affairs without the need to get approval from Brussels. The majority thought like me BUT I do think that there should have been more consideration by the government and more information about the possible outcome of the exit negotiations BEFORE the vote.
If it had been made very clear what a sticking point the Northern Ireland border would become, the vote would have probably gone the other way.
The last thing we want is to return to a hard border between the Irish Republic and the six counties that form Northern Ireland.
We now know that in the legal advice to the government about the exit deal, the likelihood is that the so called back stop could be in place indefinitely. If that was to be the case then Northern Ireland would continue to be linked to the EU and governed by many of its laws and regulations. There would also be contributions to the EU budget required for such partial membership.
The whole thing is now a total mess in my opinion and Theresa May will almost certainly lose the vote on Tuesday. And then what?
If it is an overwhelming defeat then she will have little choice but to resign. If she doesn't there will almost certainly be a vote of no confidence by Tory members. Who could replace her???
There is certainly a rocky road ahead and I am now wondering if the 'Peoples Vote' will in fact happen with us ending up as a member of the EU and withdrawing our article 50 application.

Leaving politics aside, what are your thoughts???

[LovelyLadyLux]

I can't truly comment as I only get snippets of info here and nobody has really provided comprehensive "YES" or "NO" info here complete with all implications. I can imagine though this is a life altering decision.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Been watching the morning news here and there is ZIP being said re: Brexit other than that May is really pushing "HER" agenda on this ..... just a rather cryptic one liner from a talking head.

Lots being show about France & the Yellow Jackets - BUT - and this will bring a smirk - it is being said within the context that TRUMP told Macron he'd be in trouble implementing more taxes on the people over adding more taxes especially the carbon tax/climate preservation yadda yadda yadda that Trump refused to join. Now good old Macron has been forced to cancel his tax which doesn't bode well for his future career in politics methinks.

[Grandad]

So, at 3.30 this afternoon our PM will address the Commons to tell them that she has delayed the vote on the terms of the Brexit deal. Just prolonging the agony in my opinion. I feel sure that the writing is now on the wall and her days as PM are numbered.
If there is no satisfactory solution to the Irish border problem without a 'Hard Border' then I can now see either another referendum OR withdrawal of our application to leave. Neither of which is what the referendum of June 2016 decided.
I do still want us out but not at the risk of opening all the old wounds of the 'Northern Ireland Problem'.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Interesting that while we're not hearing much re: Brexit here a talking head in passing did just give a 10 second that North Ireland would be an issue. Not really knowing too much the workings of everything I never realized any of the issues associated with Northern Ireland which as my very limited understand goes would be very serious.

[LovelyLadyLux]

I guess it is 'congrats' to Theresa May for surviving a no confidence vote and it is understandable she doesn't want to continue on. Seems Brexit is just eating up politicians.

Again all I'm getting here on Brexit is a ticker line so I have minimal details of anything.

Insights on the tone of the country? Is this really a pull the country apart deal? (seems here it is - almost like the USA last election down to 50/50 in most of the country)

[Grandad]

Well it is not going well. Poor Theresa seems to get rebutted by all in Brussels and she is a wounded PM back home. I have the greatest respect for the lady for the manner in which she has continued her efforts to get solutions that will be acceptable to Parliament. I am beginning to think this is a lost cause and what seems to be looming is either No Deal and all the problems that will bring, or the Peoples Vote, or second referendum which may reverse the original decision but that can not be assured.
I can only see the Irish border being an insolvable problem.

[BBLUX]

Not seen much comment on the state of Brexit here recently but last night after TM's little speech I came across this.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

Last night it was at around 65,000 but this morning it had already reached 640,000!
It seems "the will of the people" is mobilising against the whole Brexit shambles. I really think she has totally lost touch with the people she claims she is representing.

[LovelyLadyLux]

All I can say here is that with our Gov't also falling apart we haven't heard 1 word about Brexit.

[Ruby Slippers]

Why doesn't that surprise me! My thoughts on that 'petition' are that if Brexit is shelved or voted on again, then democracy as I knew it will have flown straight out of the window!

[Horus]

Just another attempt by Remoaners to thwart democracy, we have been royaly sold down the river. If this does get shelved then I intend never to vote in any form of election again national and local and that is from someone who has voted all my life without fail, in every previous vote I always accepted the majority result even if I did not agree with it. The only exception I shall make will be to in future vote for the most radical way out candidate with the most extreme political views should one decide to stand, that is the least this current group of self serving MPs deserve. UK democracy died with this Parliament.

[Ruby Slippers]

Hear, hear, Horus! I couldn't agree with you more!

[Mad Dilys]

I was always completely opposed to joining the EU. A lot of traditional farmers were ruined by it. Once in like it or not the best thing to do was try to make it successful.

However it is pretty obvious that leaving cannot be done quickly. It took years to reduce the various mountains of cheese etc and all our precious previous suppliers in the commonwealth eventually found other markets when we abandoned them. They won't trust us again, nor should they.

I hate that famers are being paid to leave land idle. Believe me most of them don't like it either, it goes against the grain.

[BBLUX]

I hate to have to say it but attitudes like those expressed above about Remoaners etc is what is wrong with the older sector of the UK. The younger people who will have to bear the long term effects of a Brexit are a much larger percentage of the UK population and they are expressing opinions contrary to your own You older folk, generally are on pensions with income unaffected by the state of the economy. I find that a selfish attitude and not one I wish to be associated.

[Ruby Slippers]

Your stance is not entirely altruistic though, is it, BB?

[Horus]

That is your opinion and if I may say so one of the biggest causes of the current problems we have. I find it amusing that you use the phrase “what is wrong with the older sector of the UK” and yet dissociate yourself from that group? I know many, many people who fall well outside of what you call the older sector and they are adamant that they want out, but of course the Remoaners then put them into the “uneducated and thick” category as “they did not understand what they were voting for” of course they always include themselves in the ‘clever people’ category regardless of their own lack of education or academic achievement, basically they cannot accept that they lost the vote. Every generation has had to abide by the decisions of the previous ones whether they liked it or not. It is a generational thing and if those that now feel disenfranchised because of age wish to change things, then their opportunity will come in the future.

On a balanced argument anyone would have to agree that as the group you are now quoting have never even known the alternative of living outside of EU control, then how can they have a better opinion than those who have experienced both and then made a choice? This argument is often put forward by those who have alternative agendas and will use any excuse to overturn a legitimate vote, far to many people who are really only interested in how it affects them on a personal basis or have a vested interests, you yourself live most of your life elsewhere and of course you will still want to have all the benefits that being in the EU gives to you personally, to be out of the EU disrupts your lifestyle, yet you advocate something affecting this country that the rest of us living here will have to endure and you do not. This must be the only society in the world where the wisdom of the older generation is despised, in any other culture it is respected, yet we still hear the Remoaners pursuing the argument that a sixteen year old knows better, next they will be wanting infants to vote. Respect the referendum:

It now looks as if that ludicrous petition you posted has been hacked,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-3 ... U3DaoQzLx0#

[Grandad]

It is too late to look for excuses and recrimination. We had a referendum on 23 June 2016 with the simple option to stay or leave the EU. This was a democratic vote and the leavers won, by a small margin I admit but they won.

There can be no question of having another referendum, that would destroy our parliamentary democracy even more than it is crucifying itself right now.

Theresa May was a 'Remainer' but given the task of negotiating our exit, or Brexit, I actually believe that she has accepted her responsibility as Prime Minister and worked tirelessly to get the best deal from the 'Gnomes of Brussels'. They hold all the strings and, although not perfect, the deal on the table is the best she could hope to get without entering a half hearted deal which kept the Customs Union in place and left our borders open, one of the main objections of the 'leavers' OLD AND YOUNG BARRY. The young had genuine complaints that uncontrolled immigration from EU and elsewhere was denying them jobs because immigrant labour was prepared to live in multiple occupancy accommodation for very low wages.

True there is a partial custom union to satisfy the 'Open border' between Eire and Ulster. That must be a small price to pay to avoid the horrors over that border in the eighties and nineties.

I am becoming more and more impatient with the behavior of MP's and especially the Speaker, John Bercow, who revels in his authority to disrupt procedures in the house. I think our House of Commons has looked like something from the eighteenth century of late with rabble like behavior.

Much of this I must add comes from that younger element of under fifties.
I really wish they would accept the deal so that next Friday (or at the latest 22 May) we leave the EU, apart from some legal tidying up.

As a sovereign nation we are big enough and more than capable of managing all our own affairs without the constant imposition from the EU.

As for pensions Barry, the biggest threat to pensions in this country has been the employers taking pension holidays and failing to maintain their contributions.
I know from personal experience and that has nothing to do with the EU.....

[Horus]

Hear hear Grandad, I am heartily sick of seeing MPs using some obscure arcane protocol to thwart Brexit. Of the 381 voting areas in Great Britain and Gibraltar and the 18 Northern Ireland parliamentary constituencies, a total of 270 returned majority votes in favour of "Leave the European Union"

Around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave. All of those MPs were elected on that basis by their constituents, the lower figure for the Labour vote can be accounted for by the London centric Momentum left wing group swaying the figures by drumming up the College, University and immigrant votes, elsewhere in the country the leave vote was solid. The main opposition came from minority interest groups with other agendas such as Scotland’s SNP and the Northern Ireland vote, both appearing to be large geographically, but in reality representing a small amount of the UK population, we can also rule out places like Gibraltar for similar reasons.

[BBLUX]

Folks, I do care about what happens to my family in the UK and they are all definitely not in favour of leaving the EU.
The father of my son's partner was strongly in favour of leaving when the 2016 referendum took place and voted accordingly. It produced interesting discussion at Christmas that year when all the rest of the family members present had voted to remain!
A year later on our next visit he said to me that he had made a big mistake and wondered what could be done to stop a Brexit.
He told me that he thought it was a non-binding protest vote as had many of his friends.
The fact is that the referendum had no binding legality in law but was pounced upon by the extremist egotists like Farage, Johnson etc who had pushed deliberately miss-leading claims like the £350 million a week for the NHS to try and sway peoples opinion.
My total disgust is about how the whole Brexit process has been completely messed up by the politicians of all persuasions making the UK a laughing stock in the eyes of most of the rest of the world.
My feeling is that, whatever the final outcome it could have been handled far better and it has polarised the UK in a very bad way with extremism in all its nasty ways in ascendance.

[Horus]

I can agree wholeheartedly with you saying it was messed up and yes it has made us a laughing stock, but the fault still lies with politicians who seem unable to enact the promises that they made when elected. You may say that people have changed their minds and quote examples, but as a counter argument I also know many people who are so sick and tired of the way the EU has tried to browbeat the UK into submission and their complete intransigence to any compromise that they now tell me they would now vote to leave. As to the results not being legally binding, well you could equally apply that same logic to the 1975 referendum which chose to continue keeping us inside the then EEC.

Referendums themselves are not legally binding but it is accepted that Parliament is obliged to implement them and it is Parliament that has to enact that decision on behalf of the electorate. The vast majority of MPs voted to enact Article 50 (the UK withdrawal agreement) thus they approved the Referendum vote, to try and renage on that decision now is an affront to the UK electorate. MPs voted by a majority of 384 to allow Prime Minister Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way. They backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.


The government spent an estimated £9 million sending pro-Remain leaflets to all UK households, this was on top of what the official campaign groups on either side of the debate actually received in public money, including a free mailout, a complete wast of time if the vote had no validity to start with.


We hear from the Remoaners every excuse under the sun why article 50 is illegal in some way and that “the referendum was only advisory” so lets just refresh the promise made by David Cameron, here are his actual words on the matter spoken prior to the EU sending him away with a flea in his ear after asking for some small concessions from the EU, this rebuff was in my opinion the main reason we voted to leave.

phpBB [video]

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The question was simple and unambiguous, in or out, no deals, no second referendum, no halfway house.