Should we stay or should we leave....let the debate commence

[Grandad]

So the politicians can now nail their colours to the mast of the 'Remain in Europe' or 'Leave Europe' camps.

We can now look forward, OR NOT, to 3 months of each side trying to persuade the people that their case is the right one. I believe it will end up like the Scottish referendum on independence when the money was on the YES vote but in the end the NO's had it.

For a long time I have been strongly towards the LEAVE lobby but maybe that was a thought strongly influenced by the immigrant problems. The decision is much wider than that so I will reserve my decision until I have listened very carefully to both sides. I think there are still very strong arguments for staying although I didn't think Cameron got any really big concessions. The other members of 'THE CLUB' have too much at stake personally to give much away.

I would certainly like to see more 'Sovereignty' of decisions concerning our UK and not so much cap in hand to Brussels before we can move on matters of trade, law, and border controls etc. Will just have to see how the arguments go in the coming months but I fear that many will decide on impulse based on some local issue and not look at the bigger picture......

[Horus]

I start from the preconception that all politicians are liars, each camp will tell you the reasons you should vote in any direction, what they wont tell you is the other side of the coin for a stay in or get out vote. I can well remember the original ‘Common Market’ which comprised of five countries, whenever Britain asked to join this trading club, for that was all it was back then, the French under De Gaul would always put in a ‘Non’ vote against us, this went on for many years. Eventually we were allowed in and as such we had to give up many things, our fishing industry was decimated, we had and still do have probably the most efficient farming industry in Europe and yet we still had to subsidise inefficient French farmers with one cow in a field. Cameron will tell you our food is cheaper, really? Can you all remember those ‘butter mountains’ and ‘Milk Lakes’ created by those same subsidies that went to inefficient French farmers paid to keep the price artificially high? Do you remember when it became so expensive to keep maintaining an ever growing surplus of butter & milk as they had so much in storage, where it all went? It was sold off to Russia dirt cheap so as not to lower the cost of these items if it were to be sold within the ‘Common Market’ countries, even after many protests they did not even give it away to the needy within the community. So we subsidised inefficient French farmers so that we could all give Russia cheap butter and milk products, so do you really mean it Mr CaMoron when you say food is cheaper as a result?

From that point on it became a political monster full of its own self importance, run for the benefit of France who wanted to tie Germany into a system that could never allow it to be attacked by its more powerful neighbour. What we have today is an out of control quasi government that makes and passes its own rules with a budget that has never been audited or passed off for decades. With this latest influx into Europe we are beginning to see the end, the stress on all member countries will soon become intolerable and nation states will start to rebel against this ruling elite. Take Greece as a classic example, can you believe that Greece has more military tanks than the UK and France combined have in their armed forces? Now who do you think sold them these tanks and other armaments using all this EU approved cheap loans? That’s right Germany! We pay into the EU around £53 million PER DAY and get nothing like that back, so who will be the losers if we pull out? And who will have to cough up more? That’s right, Germany and France, no wonder they want us to stay.

Now about this "we will be unable to trade with the rest of the EU unless we adopt their rules" story that gets put about. Oh really? Does anyone think that Mercedes, Volkswagen, Citroen etc will stop selling their vehicles to us? Of course not, they will be breaking their necks to sell us goods. Currently we have a large trade deficit with the EU, in other words they sell us more than we sell them. There is an old saying “He who pays the piper calls the tune” So lets imagine a stroppy EU imposing some sort of restrictions on our trading with them, simples, we just retaliate with similar restrictions on their goods such as all German goods must come via some remote port in the Shetland Isles, or make up ridiculous emission controls for all none UK vehicle imports, we are just as capable of setting up barriers as anyone else providing we had a government with some balls.

I would also make another prediction, once an ‘out’ vote won and it was imminent that the UK was going to leave the EU that there would be a domino effect that would cause the Likes of Germany and France to do some serious rethinking and the offers to try and keep us in would come flying in thick and fast, all we need to do is call their bluff. At the very worst situation we would suffer a short economic blip ( no worse than the last eight years) before we restored all our old trading links and set up new markets, incidentally our sales to the EU have repeatedly fallen year on year over recent years.

[LovelyLadyLux]

I guess I don't have a direct opinion as I'm not there to experience how life has been but something tells me that going it alone always lets you set your own terms, boundaries and limitations. Once you do this and it is known everybody WILL continue to trade with you particularly when you're in a country with sufficient populace to makes trading very profitable.

[Horus]

The having to be part of the EU argument doesn’t hold water, does America have to be part of the EU or South America to trade with them, does China have to join the EU club or the American organisations? Does Australia have to adopt an Asian consortium of countries to trade with them, just another EU myth put about. Now we have Germany complaining that it will impose sanctions on other EU countries who do not take more refugees, someone should point out that it was Frau Merkel who invited them all over in the first place.

[Robbo70]

I am in the 'leave' camp. I have never understood why we allow other countries to dictate our laws and charge us for the pleasure. I think the Polish PM has helped the leave camp today, by gloating over Davids failure to stop paying child benefits to children who are not in the UK and never will be. I now beleive we will do better going it alone than staying.

[Jayway]

LEAVE, should never have joined, Britain has managed quite well alone, now everything is messed up.

[Grandad]

I firmly believe that a word we will hear used extensively by the LEAVE camp will be 'Sovereignty' a loose definition of which is "Supreme power and authority without any interference from outside sources or bodies". I think that sums it up well for the leave camp.....

[Horus]

Glad to see that Boris has come out on the exit side, although personally he always comes over as a buffoon to me, more Benny Hill than mayor of London. I hope we do vote to leave, however I am not so sure that when push comes to shove the vote will actually go that way. My reasons being that we of the older generations can still remember the sequence of events that led up to the current situation with the EU, so we know how things used to be. The problem is as I see it the younger element who have grown up with this and know no better, I am not saying they are wrong, just that they have no real concept of us operating as an independent nation without all this EU involvement. So I think that as in the Scottish elections the majority will choose the “better the devil they know” option rather than the unknown as they will no doubt perceive it. They have grown up believing that their current way of life is the result of our membership of Europe and not just the way the world is at this particular moment in time, in other words we would be where we are today financially with or without the EU. We have commented before on how a lot of the younger generation seem to lack any ambition or indeed backbone, no doubt as a result of our Brutishness being subjugated and watered down over the last few decades by do gooders and the PC brigade, we are no longer the proud nation we once were.

I predict it will be close, but it will fail, our generation will sigh and realise that within our own lifetimes nothing again will ever change, the chance will have passed us by. Meanwhile the younger generation will inherit the disaster that is to come as the EU tears itself apart and descends into anarchy at some future date, the cracks are already showing, Greece is in meltdown, Italy is nearly bankrupt, Spain is close behind and the immigration problems within the Baltic states will probably result once more into ethnic cleansing. Germany is about to embark upon the impossible task of integration for over a million migrants which will create major political upheavals within their country and the Euro will no doubt fail dragging everyone else down with it, including the UK. The future belongs to the young, we have had our say, made our mistakes and we tried to make it right again, we can do nothing more. I doubt that it will actually make much difference in my lifetime, but as I type this I have tried and failed to think of just one good example of my being better off by being in the EU.

[Grandad]

Our son and dil called in this afternoon and I broached the subject with them. They are both adamant that we are better off with 'the devil you know' for reasons Horus has explained. They both have good very well paid jobs BUT there are many who fall into Horus's categorization of ' a lot of the younger generation seem to lack any ambition or indeed backbone'.

Why is it that so many young people are unemployed? Can they not see that because of their lack of ambition, backbone, and self determination, Eastern Europeans come here and take up all the jobs that our own young people refuse to take. Being like Horus, of a certain age, there used to be competition to get a job, any job, and be independent. These days most young people live at home until well into their twenties or thirties.

So the malaise of young people has opened the door for foreigners who are prepared to work hard and many, as a result of their efforts, do very well. I know many of them don't do so well but they still come here to work in whatever is available to earn and to send money home. Very commendable....

The LEAVE camp is gaining some big names but at the moment I am inclined to think, like Horus, that it will be close run with the STAYS having the edge. Plenty of time to change peoples minds.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Finally saw a clip about this on TV here. Was a short clip saying the British pound is down 4% because of concerns the UK will leave the EU and this phenomenon is being referred to as the "BREXIT" ... Nothing much else but it has finally hit the News here.

[Horus]

Whilst keeping a close eye on the “in or out” EU debate I have noticed a couple of interesting points, mainly the scare tactics being employed. The ‘in’ campaign have already started to spread fear rather than facts, a tactic I find despicable when one considers the need for clarity in order for people to make the right choice. Only the other day we were treated to an announcement accompanied by a great fanfare of publicity that 30 of the top UK ‘Footsie’ (FST) companies were urging us to stay in as it was in Britain’s interest to do so and leaving would damage our economy.

Really? Was it not these same companies who urged us to join the Euro and told us it would be to our advantage? Had we done so the UK would now have been bankrupt after the debacle of recent years, Similarly these same people spoke of the doom and gloom that would befall us if Britain exited the ERM (European Exchange Rate Mechanism) a prerequisite for monetary union, another lie, the UK was almost on its knees when the UK Pound came under sustained pressure from speculators and we left after only two years and never looked back, our economy went on the up and unemployment fell.

The latest scare to be circulated today by several ex ministers of defence and some top military people is that leaving the EU would damage our security in Europe and the world. Another Really? From me, I always thought that it was NATO (The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation) that had kept the peace in Europe and not the EU? Why should our membership or not of the EU affect our homeland security in any way? The EU does not form our defence strategy, it is NATO!

So we have now seen a couple of examples of the lies and scare tactics that are going to be used in order to bewilder the none informed and frighten them into voting to stay in the EU. When will we get some real truths about the various options and not lies dreamt up to scare us, we want the facts, pure and simple presented in a factual way without spin from either side, facts that we can all understand and make a decision on. I honestly do not trust any of these people that they wheel out in support of their own stance, each person or organisation has an ulterior motive and are only looking after their own interests.

[Grandad]

Something I am noticing, now that the debate is under way, is that the LEAVE camp has a distinct advantage in putting their case. By highlighting those aspects of membership that will no longer apply, and or, listing those aspects that we would then have under OUR control; they are able to quantify and put numbers on these changes.

The REMAIN camp has no such advantage and has to rely on trying to convince people with hypothetical examples of how we are better off WITHIN the EU.

Listening to members of the general public interviewed in the street, on TV and on Question Time, there is a common response that most people don't really understand the pros and cons and want honest and straightforward explanation in laymans terms of what the effect would be if we leave. We know roughly what the situation is if we remain and IMO Camerons renegotiation of our terms of membership will make little difference to the man in the street.

So far I think, with some big guns now declaring which side they are on, the Leave campaign has the edge.....

[Horus]

We have all of these other countries such as America, and even China saying things like the UK is essential to the EU and the worlds ecconomy will take a hit if we leave it etc. So it seems everyone else is more worried about what happens to them if we leave, rather than the way it affects us, its a sif we should remain in just to keep everyone else happy. Well if thats the case the rest of Europe should start realising the same and changing things for the better instead of this continually persuing closer union and an expanded market. God help us if the likes of Bosnia, Turkey, Ukraine and all the others get in and we still have no border controls, it doesn't bear thinking about.

[Horus]

The latest lunacy to come out of Brussels is Toasters & Kettles They have already dictated that our Vacuum Cleaners cannot be above a certain wattage (to save power) the most stupidest reason I can imagine and now we have this. They are wanting to reduce the power of Toasters & Kettles to reduce energy consumption! the linatics really are running the assylum. If it takes 'X' amount of energy to raise a given amount of water to boiling point, then no amount of energy efficiency can alter that, it would just take longer to boil, idiots! It is the same with a toaster, if you do not have an excess burst of heat on bread it will not toast (which is basically a scorching effect) all you would get is dry bread if you do it slowly. If these idiots really wanted to save on energy they would bring in a limit for the amount of water that could be boiled in a kettle as most people fill them up and then keep heating the same amount over and over. The sooner we leave this bunch of clowns the better.

[Grandad]

Absolutely H And have they not taken account of the fact that a slower heating of a kettle or toaster will result in more heat LOSS via the body of the appliance. Taking that to the extreme; if the heating is VERY low there would be so much heat loss that a kettle would never boil.....nerds

[Horus]

Just watched that Green Party leader Natalie Bennet gobbing on about EU membership. Then she is all for interfering in Turkey and sorting out their treatment of other ethnic groups, of being in favour of them also having free movement within the EU and banging on about us all sharing out the ‘refugees’ fairly within Europe. A couple of points spring to mind, what is an obvious Aussie doing banging on about how we should run the UK and why not bugger off back to Oz and change a few things over there for a start.

[LovelyLadyLux]

There was a time here that we had the same (ahem) brilliant idea that if we turned the power down we'd save energy. Don't know what ever happened to that idea but it does periodically float about here as a way for us to save energy.