Today on the News here........

[LovelyLadyLux]

This morning on the news the RCMP held a press conference. Apparently a few days ago somebody called them from one of the main shopping malls in Vancouver that 3 Arab looking men were in the mall taking mega photos of the entrance and exits of the shopping mall.

These men were not doing anything else and shopping mall security cameras were able to show these 3 in the mall snapping photos.

The RCMP press conference was calling for anybody who had any further info about these 3 to contact them as they wanted to talk to the men to determine what they were doing. RCMP stressed they have done nothing criminal, maybe were tourists, maybe were contractors looking to build something similar - BUT - they (RCMP) needed to know what these men were doing and why.

What I found interesting is that 'somebody' actually braved the PC Police screaming 'islamophobe' and actually called the police to report this AND that the RCMP actually came on local TV to ask the public to help them figure out who these men are so they could determine what they are doing.

As there is a huge Sikh community in the lower mainland/Vancouver area men of colour walking in groups don't really attract too much attention so these 3 must have been pretty obvious in snapping photos. It wasn't said 'when' (as in early morning or just before closing or even midday) these men were taking the photographs but it is interesting that some brave soul did report. Hopefully this report has lead to the thwarting of an attack OR hopefully this is just nothing and then men are simply tourists.

Rather sad we have now been forced to live this way - always watching and always suspicious of what the guy or gal over there is doing. Sad sad sad.

[Horus]

The object of terrorism is to make people afraid and of course it works.

[Mad Dilys]

What worries me is that it was only because they looked "Arab", not because of what they were doing.

The terrorist communities of varies types around the world ALL have members who look like they belong to many different ethic kinds.

What worries me is the possibility of a double bluff.

If the Arab looking ones attract attention doing something odd, but harmless - then those of a socially acceptable appearance can be getting on with something seriously dangerous. I think it would be labelled "drawing the fire"?

When I went into a McDonald's near Al Tahrir Square during a tense time about 20 year ago, all bags were searched at the entrance.

The security man riffled through the contents and waved me through. I refused.

I pointed out that the bag had a zip around the bottom, big enough to hold a small umbrella and a pair of gloves. If I had it packed with explosives ................

I was quite shocked, but soon found that because I was apparently a White Woman, though wearing a hijab, I was "safe".

I have frequently been waved through the entrance to Hotels without hinderance.

This fermented in my brain for a while, until I came up with the idea for a book about how dangerous the women of the Middle East are.

They are trained not to attract attention, and this, strangely gives them their freedom though outsiders don't understand that. The first time I walked down Muski Street in the Khan el Khalili wearing a hijab and by myself, was a revelation. I was totally ignored, unless I spoke to someone. No hassle, pushing, shoving and pleading. Wonderful.

Unfortunately the Leopard can change it's spots and become a Black Panther - do not be deceived by appearances, be aware, be very aware.

[Horus]

Good points MD, but I think that many people also realise that women dressed in the full black garb could be potentially hiding something, hence their suspicions of them, the same also applies to those men that wear or dress in a particular manner. I reckon it all stems from peoples suspicions that anyone willingly adopting a particular form of dress that stands out from the indigenous population must be a bit more fervent about their native culture and religious beliefs. The hotel incident you referred to is known as ethnic profiling and is used extensively by security people the world over, although it is only one part of the overall screening process. Strange as it may seem it does actually work in a general sense by allowing you to concentrate on the more 'likely' groups. So in the case of say Arab/Muslim terrorism, you would in most cases rule out a ginger haired Scotsman in a kilt and carrying a set of bagpipes as being less likely.

[Robbo70]

Last year i tried to explain to a senior plod in Luxor that many white women had converted and were a serious threat. I used that Sam Lewthwaite as an example. If she walked through Luxor airport in a tight vest top and skinny jeans, hair flowing and make up, sure the security would notice her... but not many would be looking at her face! Being white and looking western does not mean safe.

[Mad Dilys]

Horus, I had to smile about the ginger haired Scotsman as some 25 years ago I used to pray in Regents Park Mosque in London. Afterwards on the way to the coffee shop (run by an Egyptian Family who charged £8 sterling for 4 home made falafel - but I digress) I used to pop into the Islamic book shop to continue my research into the faith.

A regular customer was a pale blue eyed red haired and bearded young North country chap with strong accent. Fervent s not a term I often use as it is too extreme, but this man was fervent. He didn't wear a kilt, but a white gallabeya and sandals. He seemed blissfully happy in his religion, but I gave him a wide berth.

Fervour comes from a word meaning intense heat and in a person of any religion I find it potentially very dangerous.

[Mad Dilys]

Good points MD, but I think that many people also realise that women dressed in the full black garb could be potentially hiding something, hence their suspicions of them, the same also applies to those men that wear or dress in a particular manner. I reckon it all stems from peoples suspicions that anyone willingly adopting a particular form of dress that stands out from the indigenous population must be a bit more fervent about their native culture and religious beliefs. The hotel incident you referred to is known as ethnic profiling and is used extensively by security people the world over, although it is only one part of the overall screening process. Strange as it may seem it does actually work in a general sense by allowing you to concentrate on the more 'likely' groups. So in the case of say Arab/Muslim terrorism, you would in most cases rule out a ginger haired Scotsman in a kilt and carrying a set of bagpipes as being less likely.

Hmmn I think we have much in common Horus, but I wouldn't say that many the Brits for example who are continuing their British way of life while living abroad were fervent in their native culture and beliefs. They, like people anywhere I guess, like the familiar, whatever they have been brought up with. Seems natural to me.

I have a natural dislike of foreigners, which I have been educated to realise and to deal with it's unfairness.

I am born and bred in the countryside and of course, to country people those from the next county are Foreigners, and we resent them.

This is why when I am in Egypt I wear the Hijab and when in the UK I usually don't.

When in Rome, do as the Romans seems a good idea to me.

[Grandad]

In the last couple of days there have been attacks in Jakarta, capital of the most populous Islamic country in the world, and then yesterday at the hotel in Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso.
Such attacks are becoming more and more widespread and unpredictable. I actually certainly commend that person in Vancouver for raising the alarm. MOST attacks ARE by people looking 'different' possibly arab or middle eastern BUT, and this is a big but; with so many 'converts' many are as 'white' as me, we cannot afford to drop our guard and must not allow terrorists to be stereotyped as 'young arab looking men'.
I see nothing wrong in being alert and reporting anything that we truly believe to be suspicious.......that's the world we live in I am afraid and until the extremist groups and organisations can be totally eliminated, that is the way it is going to be...

[LovelyLadyLux]

The outcome in this case is rather anticlimactic - Soon as it was put on TV for anybody having any knowledge of these 3 men the 3 recognized themselves and came forward right away - with their therapist too!

All 3 ARE nearly blind and losing their sight. They are working with a therapist (who also came forward) and confirmed this 'going to the mall' and taking photos was part of an independent living exercise of how to know where you're going in the future when you're fully blind and to create a book for yourself complete with pictures that can be translated into braille!! So they were sent into the community to take photos of places they frequent, take photos of same so their community workers could, in future, have a reference for what they were talking about when they could no longer SEE. Alls well that ends well - BUT in this day and age when you see 3 Arab men taking copious photos of, in this case, Vancouver Place Mall I'm more than happy it was reported and looked at.

The couple in San Bernadino had neighbours who when interviewed said they suspected this couple was up to something - BUT they never reported as they didn't want to be accused of being racist! If they had only spoken out 14 people might be alive today however the neighbours said they were so afraid of being label racist they ignored their own instincts about what they saw.

I do agree that white people have a corner on being 'allowed through' in other areas of the world. I'm green eyed white with blonde hair. Sadly I'm never stopped unless it is a random search and, like you say "I" could be a convert and possibly potentially more 'fervent' about something than a person born into whatever.

All is well that ends well - BUT - with so many attacks happening I personally favour law enforcement using whatever they have to use i.e. racial profiling to ensure safety for all.

[Grandad]

Any informant SHOULD get anonymity.

Good that it was a no worries incident at the Mall however I would have thought that the therapist would have talked to the management first. Nobody would object and would probably help in any way possible.

Peoples suspicions will only be raised if they see something they find suspicious. If for instance I came home late and unloaded into my garage something from my car that looked a bit like a gun (it could be a steam floor cleaner for example) and if someone unknown to me reported it, I would not be offended if 'plod' came round to investigate......provided it was not at 4am by armed Swat Squad.

[LovelyLadyLux]

In an ideal world we all should have the freedom to do whatever we want and everybody should be OK with us doing it confident we're basically minding our own business with no intent to harm.

Not sure those days ever existed but they're definitely NOT here now.

We don't have metal detectors in our malls yet - BUT - I can see the day coming. Rather sad as so many fought so hard for the freedom to do whatever and now there has been the rise of radical animals whose sole focus is to take it away.

[Robbo70]

There have been many times that I have been travelling through Cairo airport and Omar has been stopped ahead of me. Of course i stop too, and on seeing he is with me, they dont even bother to finish the bag search and apologise and wave him through. I think this is a very dangerous idea, as it would be easy for someone with bad intentions to dupe his european wife into getting a visa for europe and sailing through security because of their other half.

[Horus]

What I find so irksome is that the fundamentalists all come from failing or repressive countries, but wish to change ours into a mirror of the mess that they created at home, so I ask myself why? If they wish to live under that sort of religious zeal or repression of thought and freedom of speech, of treating women as chattels and have barbaric practices in the name of justice and custom, then I along with most people are happy to let them get on with it so long as it does not affect me. It is the same with those second or third generation families that were given either asylum or immigration status then decide that they would like to turn our country into a replica of the very thing that they wanted to get away from in the first place, whatever that reason was. Finally we have the converts, certainly a minority and they do so for whatever reasons they choose, but I have always held any religion to be a form of brain washing regardless of which brand it is from Christianity, Islam, Judaism and every other variant they may choose.

In my book they all have some basic need to be subservient to some god in whatever form that god takes and as such is nothing more than superstition. Like all superstitions it takes many forms “don’t step on the cracks in the pavement” “Don’t walk under a ladder” Then we have ritual practices such as Christians crossing themselves, Muslims always having to put PBUH after just mentioning Mohammed’s name, painting his picture, but putting a white veil over his face. I find all these practices ridiculous and reserve my right to say so. However anyone is free to do whatever, just so long as it does not impinge upon my way of life and that is where the problem lies as currently it is Islam in whatever deviant form it takes that is the problem today. Years ago it may have been Crusading Christians or Catholics bent on converting the savages of South America, but on every occasion it was the fervent religious belief that caused the problem, as it does today.

Today’s current religious plague is a version dreamt up by an illiterate dessert nomad who cunningly pre-empted anyone else claiming a similar status by saying that he was the last of gods messengers, a smart move on his part, a bit like playing ‘King of the Castle’ with prophets. Also in common with other religions Islam also claims that even non believers are born Muslim, it is just that we don’t acknowledge it, by coincidence the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses make a similar claim, so we must assume that all Muslims are really just Christians who have just not acknowledged that they are. These sort of things must surely make any reasonable person question the adherence to any faith. In every stage of human history people have worshipped a god of some description, each god had different attributes and customs, so no two gods could be deemed variations of the ‘one’ same god as some would try to claim. We have worshipped Baal, a god that had children sacrificed to him, even the common denominator of all today's religions Abraham had god wanting him to sacrifice his own son. OK it was supposed to be a test of faith, but the idiot would have no doubt done it for his 'god' had his 'god' (or more likely his fevered brain) not stopped him. Others like Khali a goddess of the cult of ‘Thuggee’ who’s adherents strangled people to death or the Mayans ripping out the beating hearts of their sacrifices to the Sun God.

My point being that all of these people believed in their gods at that particular point in time, from Egyptians being one with ‘Ra’ to Vikings drinking in the ‘Halls of Valhalla’ with the god Odin. Each believed that their god was the true god or gods and they would go to their own version of heaven. So my question is “where are they now?” are they all residing in their own personal form of heaven, or are they all languishing in hell because they were non believers of the modern faiths? OK the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and Muslims have it covered by saying everyone is a closet Muslim/Christian, but what about all the previous religions? Do they get a retrospective admission to heaven in a religion that did not even exist? And what happens to all of today’s Muslims and Christians when in a few hundred/thousand years all current main stream religions get replaced by yet another? By then we may all be worshipping the ‘Great Martian God’

Anyway, it is Sunday and I am sounding like a preacher myself, so worship whatever god you wish to and even become martyrs if that is your desire, just don’t bother taking anyone else with you, the Buddhists seem to have the right idea, they just set fire to themselves in an open space without harming others and not blowing themselves up in a crowded shopping centre.

[Grandad]

Well stated H, as always.

I think your opening question, "What I find so irksome is that the fundamentalists all come from failing or repressive countries, but wish to change ours into a mirror of the mess that they created at home, so I ask myself why?" is the hub of the problems with religions, ALL religions.

I believe that they play on the 'have nots' by a minority of 'haves'. The few at the top, whose sincerity I doubt, persuaded the majority that there was a better life by whatever means they chose to preach. I remember vividly seeing the poorest of the poor living on the pavements of Jaipur actually happy in their situation because their Hindu religion told them that life could be better when they return in their next life.

Look at the so called Evangelist Billy Graham in the 60's and 70's convincing people that the Lord will save you, to the point that some passed out with emotion. I believe he became a very rich man and I was never convinced about his sincerity, just a great showman.

I have never 'believed' and never will. To me believing is a hollow faith, that gives hope, that there is something better when there isn't, unless you make it better yourself and not trust in some faceless God.

The problem with religion IS religion itself but all the time we have such disparity in the world there will be religions preaching what could or should be by the Haves to the easily persuaded, Have Nots.

[Robbo70]

I always wondered why, if these weirdy beardy types want to live the way the Prophet did, why not clear all signs of modern day life from an area, build a nice little shack on a mountain side, get a few goats and dispose of their mobile phone. nah, didnt think so. I am sure there would be a queue of volunteers to help build a ruddy big wall around an area, and techie types to block all phone and internet signals for them so they could get on with a peaceful life, mirroring that of those forerunners of Islam. I also wonder how long before russia drops a rather powerful bomb and starts off the process for them

In fairness, I dont get any religion having to force their beliefs on people and insisting their way is the right way. Its like everyone is competing to see who has the best imaginary friend, or who is going to get the best afterlife. They seem to miss out on the 'now' whilst bickering over the past and the future.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Historically I think that world Leaders quite liked the idea of people following a religion or belief system. I think most historical leaders used the concept of a Deity even greater than them to help instill fear and obedience in the people. I think the Leaders (whose own powers might not be really that great) would talk that they could invoke the Gods through them which would give them even greater power in the eyes of the everyday man. Look at how powerful Catholic Priests are - cause "who" is the main one talking to God? Who has the ear of the Big Guy in the Sky and so if you're not obedient and word gets to the Big Guy - well you're toast!

I also think that many people enjoy the social aspect now of a church family. Many of the modern churches are singing rock music and clapping hands and hallelujahing and doing a real uplifting performance. Granted they DO collect $$ and throw God in there but in many of the more modern churches the traditional ceremonies of my childhood are long gone. In the USA if you belong to a church that church will also financially help you if you fall on hard times. The welfare system there isn't as good as it is in Canada (and I think the UK) so if you want to hedge your bets you join and belong on even a token basis to a church.

[Mad Dilys]

What I find so irksome is that the fundamentalists all come from failing or repressive countries, but wish to change ours into a mirror of the mess that they created at home, so I ask myself why? If they wish to live under that sort of religious zeal or repression of thought and freedom of speech, of treating women as chattels and have barbaric practices in the name of justice and custom, then I along with most people are happy to let them get on with it so long as it does not affect me. It is the same with those second or third generation families that were given either asylum or immigration status then decide that they would like to turn our country into a replica of the very thing that they wanted to get away from in the first place, whatever that reason was. Finally we have the converts, certainly a minority and they do so for whatever reasons they choose, but I have always held any religion to be a form of brain washing regardless of which brand it is from Christianity, Islam, Judaism and every other variant they may choose.

In my book they all have some basic need to be subservient to some god in whatever form that god takes and as such is nothing more than superstition. Like all superstitions it takes many forms “don’t step on the cracks in the pavement” “Don’t walk under a ladder” Then we have ritual practices such as Christians crossing themselves, Muslims always having to put PBUH after just mentioning Mohammed’s name, painting his picture, but putting a white veil over his face. I find all these practices ridiculous and reserve my right to say so. However anyone is free to do whatever, just so long as it does not impinge upon my way of life and that is where the problem lies as currently it is Islam in whatever deviant form it takes that is the problem today. Years ago it may have been Crusading Christians or Catholics bent on converting the savages of South America, but on every occasion it was the fervent religious belief that caused the problem, as it does today.

Today’s current religious plague is a version dreamt up by an illiterate dessert nomad who cunningly pre-empted anyone else claiming a similar status by saying that he was the last of gods messengers, a smart move on his part, a bit like playing ‘King of the Castle’ with prophets. Also in common with other religions Islam also claims that even non believers are born Muslim, it is just that we don’t acknowledge it, by coincidence the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses make a similar claim, so we must assume that all Muslims are really just Christians who have just not acknowledged that they are. These sort of things must surely make any reasonable person question the adherence to any faith. In every stage of human history people have worshipped a god of some description, each god had different attributes and customs, so no two gods could be deemed variations of the ‘one’ same god as some would try to claim. We have worshipped Baal, a god that had children sacrificed to him, even the common denominator of all today's religions Abraham had god wanting him to sacrifice his own son. OK it was supposed to be a test of faith, but the idiot would have no doubt done it for his 'god' had his 'god' (or more likely his fevered brain) not stopped him. Others like Khali a goddess of the cult of ‘Thuggee’ who’s adherents strangled people to death or the Mayans ripping out the beating hearts of their sacrifices to the Sun God.

My point being that all of these people believed in their gods at that particular point in time, from Egyptians being one with ‘Ra’ to Vikings drinking in the ‘Halls of Valhalla’ with the god Odin. Each believed that their god was the true god or gods and they would go to their own version of heaven. So my question is “where are they now?” are they all residing in their own personal form of heaven, or are they all languishing in hell because they were non believers of the modern faiths? OK the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and Muslims have it covered by saying everyone is a closet Muslim/Christian, but what about all the previous religions? Do they get a retrospective admission to heaven in a religion that did not even exist? And what happens to all of today’s Muslims and Christians when in a few hundred/thousand years all current main stream religions get replaced by yet another? By then we may all be worshipping the ‘Great Martian God’

Anyway, it is Sunday and I am sounding like a preacher myself, so worship whatever god you wish to and even become martyrs if that is your desire, just don’t bother taking anyone else with you, the Buddhists seem to have the right idea, they just set fire to themselves in an open space without harming others and not blowing themselves up in a crowded shopping centre.

Thank you Horus, but I was aware of your views on me and my religion (and I suspect most readers of this forum were) before you had your rant.

I hope that you feel better for getting it off your chest. It doesn't worry me, I've heard it all before.

I'm going to have a nice cup of tea and some ginger cake, I wish you could join me.

[LovelyLadyLux]

As a further update to the main story now that more investigating reporting has happened turns out there IS a therapist and there are 3 Arab people. The adult man who lives in Vancouver is visually compromised and works with the therapist. The other two are a father and sight compromised son from the UK who came to visit in Vancouver at the urging of the friend on the basis that the son (14 yrs old now) might find it easier to live in Vancouver as his sight fails further.

These 3 did go to the mall and take photos as part of an exercise of the visually impaired Vancouver resident and they were reported to the RCMP.

The RCMP DID post photos of the 3 via the security cameras and they did self identify.

Now that this has all come out the PC Police and Do Gooders are heating up demanding the Mayor of Vancouver apologize to the trio, demanding the RCMP apologize on the basis that by posting their photos on our TV and asking if anybody knows this trio that they (RCMP) via innuendo associated these three to terrorism!!!

Course the Dad from the UK is now saying his 14 yr old son has been TRAUMATIZED by all this!!!

I saw the RCMP Spokesperson on TV saying there was NO crime, NOTHING done wrong but it was reported and they simply wanted to speak to the trio to clear up what they were doing at the Mall taking all the photos. It was a very gentle request with lots of provisos that they only wanted to talk and NO CRIME was committed.

I actually thought at the time of the first report that this was a REALLY GOOD THING. There was a concern of odd behavior and so the RCMP were acting on it........

God Help Us!! We're going to pander so much to these Do Gooding PC Police types that we'll kill ourselves in the process AND now for there to be calls for Officials to apologize ......... UGH!!! I hope they say NO (but I doubt it) and yeah - the kid is traumatized Why at 14 isn't he at home in the UK and IN SCHOOL and doing this type of travel on spring breaks and holidays?

[LovelyLadyLux]

@Robbo - I'm all for your idea too. I've often said here that IF these ISIS types WANT to live like the Prophet did then we give them an area of the desert, wall it off, take away their cell phones and Ipads (or jam all outside communications) and ALL modern conveniences and let them live the life they want.

Definitely strikes me as incongruous that they want to go back to the old ways yet talk to their friends on a phone and surf the 'Net.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Thank you Horus, but I was aware of your views on me and my religion (and I suspect most readers of this forum were) before you had your rant.

@MD - I read what Horus wrote but honestly never associated at all anything he said as being directed at or related to you.