When in Rome.....?

[Ruby Slippers]

On the heels of the 'other' discussion, I feel that the titled thread of that discussion was veering away from the original point, hence a new one.

I personally feel that the UK must be the only country in the world where the backlash of mass immigration is eroding the rights of the native population by law! It seems to me that every year that goes past sees another law passed giving more control of our basic way of life into foreign hands. The halal meat argument is just the latest in a long line. It is rapidly coming to a point where we (the natives) are becoming too scared to even voice an opinion etc. in case we are branded as 'racist' or breaking yet another law; or acting in a way that might give offence to a minority group! Am I alone in feeling this way? If I visit another country, I make a point of finding out about their customs etc. beforehand, and I try to adhere to them. I don't expect them to change their laws for me. After all, I am in their country and when in Rome........! But the reverse seems to be happening here in England. I have always thought I was a tolerant person and can live and let live, as long as others leave me alone to do so, and I try to see all sides of a coin, but I am now being told how my life is going to be - and I don't like it one bit! Integration is becoming a dirty word! Please feel free to add your views to this topic, please or offend!

[Horus]

RS you have put into context the views of many people in this country and you will see the feelings shown in the next weeks local & EU elections when candidates promising reform on open door immigration and opposing open border controls imposed via the EU policy makers are elected in big numbers, much to the detriment of the two major parties who are now running scared. I noticed that all of the election material dropping through my letter box has firm action promised by the main parties on these very subjects should they be elected again, why has it taken them so long to take on board the genuine concerns of the British people that our culture is being swamped by minority groups and the practice of pandering to their every whim lest we be called racist.

What really does concern me more is that multi culturism has not worked, quite the opposite in fact, we should have insisted that immigrants assimilate into our culture and not be allowed to change it by stealth as has happened more recently, we have schools in the UK that have children each speaking one of over fifty different languages, we have to provide interpreters for court cases in more languages than I could name here. We have large communities of people living here who still want to go back home to choose a bride from a village in India or to send their female children overseas to be mutilated by some bunch of harridans and expect that we are OK with that, sometimes it just beggars belief that our tolerance has been so abused to the point we are afraid to speak out against it.

Enoch Powell gave his famous ‘Rivers of blood’ speech in which he predicted future conflict within the UK due to proposed post war anti discrimination legislation and Commonwealth immigration policies, he said and I quote:

"As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see 'the River Tiber foaming with much blood.'"

He was at the time (1968) roundly condemned by all the liberal types who could see nothing wrong with this policy of unbridled immigration, but alas his words are starting to become a reality, especially when it has been compounded by open door EU immigration. I fear that unless something is done to reduce the amount of immigrants allowed to settle here and to stop pandering to these minority groups then there will eventually be a severe backlash against these minorities and their alien cultures. What is interesting to observe though is that it is a view also supported by those immigrants who have assimilated into UK society rather than those that form enclaves within it.

[LovelyLadyLux]

So far, knock on wood, Canada has not experienced what the UK is experiencing - HOWEVER - we do not yet have mass immigration of Islamic people. We do have huge populations (i.e. Sihk, Hindu, Asian) that are well established and they are all allowed to practice whatever they want freely and easily. Politics-wise seems to me the Sihk have been the most demanding i.e. they have been successful in having legislation passed to allow them to wear turbans vs helmets if they're in the RCMP (police). Not sure about the military. This example however means our laws CAN be changed if petitioned enough and I'd hate to engage a discussion re: race with anybody I don't know extremely well as I don't want to run the risk of the R label being foisted on me.

By and large I don't think we're quite at where your country is as we don't have the high populations YET.

[Horus]

The example you quote of Sikh head-dress is another example, we in the UK have to abide by the law which says you MUST wear a crash helmet when riding a motorcycle otherwise your licence is endorsed and you pay a hefty fine. Now a Sikh is allowed to ride a motorbike because he CANNOT wear a helmet when wearing a turban! So the law is changed to accommodate this.

We are not saying a turban offers the same protection as a crash helmet, because it does not, it is simply to pander to another’s religious requirements. I can accept in the case of a piece of dress uniform that exceptions can be made as dress is of little real consequence and some discretion is OK by me, but if I want to ride a motorcycle I am told I must wear a crash helmet as a requirement.

It has nothing to do with religion, it is to do with safety, if I had a severe disability I could not drive any vehicle unless I complied with certain criteria that made me safe from injury and injury to others. So the answer is and always has been quite clear “I cannot comply with your safety laws for riding a motorcycle because I wear a turban” In that case you have two choices, either remove your turban and put on a crash helmet whilst riding your motorbike, or do not ride a motorbike, simple really.

[Glyphdoctor]

Canada has a higher percentage of foreign born population than the UK. But I do sense a lot more dissatisfaction from the UK than I do from Canadians or Americans. But then Canada and the US didn't sell themselves into EU slavery either. There's much more local autonomy in making laws in the US and probably Canada too that allows people to feel they have some sort of self-control over their regulations as appropriate for their local community and ethnic makeup. Also, by second or third generation, immigrant families in the US tend to blend in culturally, without anyone pushing them to do so.

[Grandad]

Also, by second or third generation, immigrant families in the US tend to blend in culturally, without anyone pushing them to do so.

Glyph that is precisely what does not happen in the UK. There is a reluctance to change and, as RS said 'when in Rome'. Enclaves develop where a small community run their lives as if they were still in their country of origin. And that is certainly not 'blending in culturally'.

Although the growth of Islam in the UK has been mentioned, the big problem is the open door policy of the EU. The UK has a good social benefits system and that becomes well known in eastern European countries and encourages immigration. We even know that some immigrants (legal under EU regulations) come armed with maps and directions of how to find the benefits office. And in general Brits have had enough and, as Horus has said, some minor parties will really make the major parties sit up and take notice at the coming local and EU elections, next Thursday.

[Ruby Slippers]

A thought has suddenly struck me on the case of Sikhs and no helmets - how can they get insurance without a skid lid? I thought it was illegal to drive without insurance.

[LovelyLadyLux]

In Canada in October 2012 ALL the laws have just changed re: marriages and, for example, a wife bringing her 'spouse' into the country. IF you marriage is less than 2 years duration you're going to be super scrutinized. When I looked up this change (the dtr has an inlaw who went to African (he is 52) and is trying to bring back a 30yr old wife) it was very specific that this change in the law was due to the "high number of illegitimate marriages."

I also know that immigration in Canada is now based on a point system so unless you're an educated professional your chances of coming into Canada are seemingly nil.

I can also say that we do have areas that are basiscally non-English speaking communities. In the lower mainland of BC there are very distinct Asian and Indian populations. Stats I heard from quite a while ago indicated something like half a million Indian people in Vancouver and I do know they have their own newspapers, TV stations etc. "Hockey night in Canada" is every Saturday night and extremely popular. There is also a channel offering "Punjabi Hockey Night in Canada." We have TV channels in MULTIPLE channels BUT so far I haven't heard of any one culture making too many demands on us.

I can say, tongue in cheek, that NOBODY in Canada is allowed to criticize the French. To do so is severely frowned upon. And nobody can say anything about First Nations and they've had decades of affirmative action programs. There is a large Arab population in the eat part of Canada but that is 3000 miles away from me so not sure if there are local problems or not.

I kinda think that the UK and EU might be experiencing more problems due to the close proximity you all live in. ??? Just a supposition on my part. I've always thought that having your crazy neighbor or different neighbor or new immigrant neighbor way over there lets you live easier because you don't have to see this person up front and personal each and every day. Nor do they see you that close so each of us can carry on and do what we want without bothering each other.

On another note in the USA there is a strong call for the Gov't to get a handle on Immigration however this is in response to all the Mexican people flooding in and living in the USA illegally.

[Horus]

Ruby S wrote:

A thought has suddenly struck me on the case of Sikhs and no helmets - how can they get insurance without a skid lid? I thought it was illegal to drive without insurance.

They do get insurance, but you couldn't and it would be void if you were involved in an accident and not wearing one, but they get away with it, one law for one and a bend over backwards to accomodate another.

Glyph has hit the nail on the head with her comparisons of immigrants assimilating into American or Canadian culture, they still maintain an ethnic tradition and that is fine as it all adds to the variety of life, but they do consider themselves to be American or Canadian which is far from the case here. Just to clarify the EU situation to you, we never voluntarily ‘sold’ ourselves into EU slavery, we were conned. I know that both Grandad and myself are of an age when we asked to vote on a single question which was “Do you wish to be part of a European trading block?” ergo a 'Common Market' no different to any deals that the US has with South American countries or Australia has with the Pacific rim. The big difference has been an incessant adoption by successive governments of rules and regulations set down by a largely un -elected body that sits in Strasbourg. It has continually given itself more and more powers most of which have had some detrimental effect on this nations sovereignty and now the people have had enough and are telling our political parties the same, either change the way this thing works or get out of it.

Your comparisons of Canada with UK are also misleading, according to the 2013 UN trends in immigration figures Canada (a much larger country land mass wise) had 7,284,069 immigrants whereas the UK (a relatively small island) had 7,824,131 immigrants, so we beat them in that distinction.

The UK is home to 3.4 % of all immigrants in the world whereas for Canada it is only 3.1%
Where Canada beats us is when immigrants are taken as a percentage of the population at 20.7% as opposed to our figure of 12.4 % which is hardly surprising as the estimated population figure for Canada in 2013 was 34,881,000 million. The population of the UK was estimated to be 63.7 million in mid-2012 (we have not had a more recent census). So by my calculations Canada would have somewhere in the region of 7.2 million immigrants (7,220,367 to be precise) and UK would have nearly 7.9 million immigrants (7,898,800 to be more precise). Again statements you make to support your cause do not stack up, no cigar this time round either.

[LovelyLadyLux]

@RS - as for the Sikhs in Canada there are all the same concerns that Horus listed. If "I" was out there riding a motorcycle I'd have to have a crash helmet. I know the Sikhs that are police wear their turbans with their badge on the front crest. Am not sure what they do when riding motorcycles. Not sure - but I definitely get your point. How does insurance make an exception for them?

[LovelyLadyLux]

It is my understanding (and I haven't memorized our laws) but IF the Canadian gov't grants you Canadian status (be it green card, citizenship etc) there is a hard and firm that you then MUST remain in the country (no exits whatsoever) for 2 yrs and once you become Canadian you are only allowed to leave Canada for 6 months each and every year. Canada holds people to Canada. You can't wander in and out and go all about once you are IN Canada. I know if I take my car out of my province for more than 30 days I have to report this to the Gov't run Insurance program.

My point is that maybe we're stricter about keeping people IN the country which helps them adjust. ??

I'm aware we have a high percentage of people who are Immigrants AND where I live, on the Island, the highest number of "accents" I hear are those from England, Scotland, Netherlands and S. Africa.

[Ruby Slippers]

I can't help thinking that we used to live in a democracy and the fact that we enjoyed the rights of free speech made us a desirable country to live in. Now, though, that idea seems to have gone out of the window! I have no objection to having any nationality as a neighbour - and yes, LLL, we do live in fairly close proximity here, as you say - as long as we are all accorded the same rights and live by the same conditions.

[LovelyLadyLux]

One more tidbit - I have a large house and live close to a University and a Federal Fisheries Research Centre. I have rented a Suite downstairs to Grad students. Last year I had a woman who was a US citizen completing her PhD via several huge universities (Harvard and UBC) Anyway one day she comes up to see me and shows me a letter from the Canadian Federal Gov't basically inviting her to 'stay and become a Canadian citizen' and promising to 'smooth the way' if she wanted to do this. !!!! WOW!!!!

I wouldn't have believed this unless I'd seen the letter myself but it was extremely formal and detailed AND I have to admit this woman would have been a super catch for any country to have. Her research has moved her on now so am not sure what she ultimately decided but will see.

Now, as another piece of trivia I've rented my suite to a young adult Saudi. His gov't is also sponsoring him to study in Canada and he'll be completing an MBA via his gov't $$$. We've had lots of talks about culture and his position is that while he is IN CANADA he is willing to drop most of his Islamic Saudi customs. He WILL pray, won't eat pork, won't smoke and won't date (apparently he is getting married once he returns to Saudi - his bride will then be given to him) but he has absolutely no 'requirements' of me, the neighbourhood or Canada. He is a very nice young guy and is very devoted to his studies. I'm not sure, at this time, if he'll opt to remain in Canada once his studies are completed and/or if he is also going to get a letter inviting him to become a citizen!!

[Glyphdoctor]

Your comparisons of Canada with UK are also misleading, according to the 2013 UN trends in immigration figures Canada (a much larger country land mass wise) had 7,284,069 immigrants whereas the UK (a relatively small island) had 7,824,131 immigrants, so we beat them in that distinction.

The UK is home to 3.4 % of all immigrants in the world whereas for Canada it is only 3.1%
Where Canada beats us is when immigrants are taken as a percentage of the population at 20.7% as opposed to our figure of 12.4 %

And the relative percentages was the statistic I was talking about ("Canada has a higher percentage of foreign born population than the UK."). And just because Canada has a large landmass doesn't mean that people are spread out equally thin. They still have to interact with one another just as much as people anywhere else do.

[Glyphdoctor]

I think another difference between Canada/US and the UK is the background of the immigrants from Asia/Africa in each country. Most Asians and Africans in the US and probably Canada too are highly educated and relatively wealthy. Egyptians in the US, for example, are far, far more educated than the average American and their education levels surpass that of all other ethnic groups. 2/3 have at least a bachelor's degree. I get the impression a lot of the immigrants to the UK from these countries are not so successful.

The group that gets the most prejudice from Americans is one of the poorest and least educated, Mexicans.

[Horus]

And just because Canada has a large landmass doesn't mean that people are spread out equally thin. They still have to interact with one another just as much as people anywhere else do.

Well not according to LLL and she lives there

[LovelyLadyLux]

I should say that probably 90% of Canadian cities and population is located in the extreme southern areas of Canada and kinda parallel along the Canada US border.

I was actually talking about high density housing. The majority of city houses, as per building code, have to have 25' on one side of them an 6' on the other side and usually builders organize so that houses are, at a minimum 31 feet away from each other which gives LOTS of land to build a fence (which almost everybody does) or plant a hedge (if you don't have a fence you have a hedge). And backyards almost always extend back at least 50 to 80 feet (mine is 150 I think although it goes straight up). My point is that there is sufficient land area that we aren't really in each other's backyards.

However - since I've now made those statements I want to add the qualifier that we DO have inner city areas in some of the bigger older cities where I'm sure housing is stacked on top of each other. We DO have tenement buildings so some people are squished together but really that is not the norm.

Canada has a socialist system of government and by and large we ALL live in a middle class. We don't have Uber-rich but we also don't have uber-poor. IF a person cannot manage their own money so as to be able to pay rent, buy food etc. our gov't will take over and app't a Caseworker from the Office of the Public Trustee and your welfare money will be administered so that your rent is paid, you have food etc. It is really really hard to be POOR in Canada. You almost can never hit rock bottom. By virtue of the fact I was born Canadian even if I burned through every penny I had I would still be entitled to get something like $580/month (that amount is way off as I'm talking about what it was 15 yrs ago and I don't really know what it is now).

I know I'm not talking about the welfare system in Canada but Immigrants are entitled to all of this plus FREE medical. I think once Canada realized immigrants with no quals were starting to rush to our shores for free medical they stringent'd up.

In the USA you can easily crash burn and hit rock bottom with NO social welfare system available to bail you out nor is there anybody to administer your funds if you're unable to manage them yourself.

[Glyphdoctor]

I'm not talking about the distance between homes, I'm talking about social interaction. People still have to go to school, work, shopping etc. and interact with others in those settings.

[carrie]

I have lived here in Egypt for 13 years now so only know what is happening in the UK from my infrequent visits, my daughter lives not too far from Folkestone and there is a lovely part down near the beach with lovely sweeping houses somewhat reminiscent of Bath. Whilst I was there last time I said I was going to go down there for a walk.
Oh no Mum you mustn't go there its not safe. Why? It has now all been converted into bed sits for asylum seekers, they sell drugs and it just isn't safe.
Whilst walking round Folkestone there were numerous groups of young men about 25-35 years of age all stood in groups and chatting. Didn't feel threatened in any way but none of them were speaking a language that I recognised. I felt like I was in a foreign country.
I can understand the appeal of parties like UKIP who promise to curb immigration but I am afraid it is too late.
Another thing the people coming from European Union, why should they integrate into the local population they don't intend to stay for ever just earn money and then return to whence they came. There is no incentive to get them to integrate and no need or desire for them to do so.
Wouldn't live in the UK again and this coming from someone who used to be very patriotic and proud of their country.

[Horus]

Not everyone in the UK is living on top of each other and it is a misconception to think that we do, we have plenty of open spaces (not as much as Canada or the US), but all the same we do not feel cramped in any way, at least I don’t. I know from their posts that like myself Grandad and Kiya live in largish properties with gardens and at the most one adjoined neighbour or in my case none, so physical constraints are not the problem. It is the stress on our infrastructure, everything from available new housing to education to health care and most of this burden comes from immigration. We are an island and we are full up, we can happily support our own people including immigrants that are already here, what we don’t want is anymore it is changing our society for the worst.

If Glyph wants to get a better insight she should take a look at the Local & EU election results after they are held on May 22nd and just see what I predict will be a massive swing politically towards parties that promise action on these particular issues.