OPERATION YEWTREE AND THE WIDER PICTURE

[Grandad]

I have hesitated in posting this because it is such an emotive topic but as I have some views on the subject I am introducing it for some discussion on here.

Operation Yewtree was opened by the Metropolitan Police following allegations that, the then deceased, TV personality and charity fundraiser Jimmy Savile had been guilty of sexual abuse predominantly of children. Up to around 500 people came forward claiming to have been abused by Savile and the Met continues its investigation into these claims.

These allegedly took place from the late fifties through at least four decades and the evidence strongly suggests that Savile was predatory in seeking out and abusing young people. There can be no doubt that he was instrumental in some very high level charity fundraising but he possibly used his popularity to hide his seedier activities.

Operation Yewtree then broadened its investigations to include claims of abuse, from other members of the public, against others in the entertainment business, many during the same years as the Savile claims. These broader investigations have brought claims against many men, now in their sixties, seventies and even eighties. These are people who would have been in their twenties and early thirties at the time and in the forefront of popular entertainment, particularly that provided for the younger audience.

What concerns me a lot right now is that some females who might have been in early teens at the time, acting and behaving above their years, attending the pop gig events of the day, and finding their way into some adored presenter or entertainers dressing room. The sort of people that they had posters of on their bedroom walls. To put it crudely, they were ‘up for it’.

They are now making claims of abuse against these aged personalities and it can only be ones word against the other, proof of any actual ‘abuse’ is impossible. To me they are women who had their fun and probably boasted about it at the time; who now see an opportunity following the Savile cases, of making claims for compensation. If they felt SO strongly why didn’t they raise the matter at the time instead of destroying the reputation of former personalities just to try to win a few thousand pounds for an unproven abuse many years ago.

There are predatory pedophiles who deserve all that the law can throw at them; but I have sympathy for these men and the cases being brought today seem to take no account of the situations that prevailed at the time of the, so called, offences.

Do you have any views on this subject????

[LovelyLadyLux]

Ohhh do I have views! LOTS!

There are pedophiles and the good ones have a broad range of subjects ie. priests and young boys or in our last famous case in the USA the Jerry Sandusky case where he as a Head Coach at a University had access to and assaulted umpteen young boys WITH the knowledge of others who just failed to say much about it. Once one disclosed many many more started disclosing. Turns out this man had opened children's charities, brought kids to his home and did whatever while his wife was upstairs ostensibly unaware. Huge court case however Mr Sandusky is now in jail........then we also have Michael Jackson! Did he or didn't he? AND how many families did he pay off of ??

I can understand people not reporting for years and then coming out in that #1 they were kids when it happened #2 the culture was more closed about it way back then #3 lots of shame attached and #4 most importantly - pedophiles are often REAL good at offending. Often their advances are so subtle (ie. popcorn is spilled and they just brush it off the genital area of the child). The child is slowed groomed into this type of touching so that when it initially subtely crosses the line they (child) are left querying what actually happened. Very rarely will a child report at this stage AND again, I repeat - pedophiles are really good at what they do. #5 When the abuse plus coercion becomes blatant there are often threats - You tell and your parent die or I'll kill your dog or whatever and on and on.

There is child abuse which takes from birth to 17 yrs of age. Then there are teenagers who basically throw themselves at the rock stars. Totally different story and to come out years later claiming abuse - well Basically that would take investigation and a determination of events long long ago. There would also have to be patterns established and cooroborating evidence and - well it really would come down to he said/she said. If it was truly abuse it is too bad it didn't come out earlier so that justice could prevail but coming out years and years later always leaves the victim suspect which is also a whole other topic too (what motivates victims to talk years later)

Haven't heard anything here about the case you mentioned Grandad but we DO have similar ones and in cases like these hindsight isn't always 20/20.

[Grandad]

I am setting pedophiles to one side. They are sick, sad individuals who should at least be castrated.

I am more concerned about getting the balance right when it comes to impressionable young girls getting up close and cosy with people they look up to. And we all know how these little schemers can lie about their age and lead on the object of their affection.

I believe that to a large extent these events are mutually agreeable and therefore the responsibility is also equally shared. In the cases in point we are talking about events several decades ago but, I have little doubt that such things continue in the entertainment business right now.

Perhaps in years to come there will be similar claims of abuse when todays 'teeny boppers' become mature females who will look back and think, so and so abused me, and I am going to report him.

Maybe I am being my usual cynical self but I do not have much time for most of the claimants in these grubby little cases and the thousands of police hours could be better spent on current crime clean up.

[Horus]

Peodophiles apart, who of course need persuing vigorously and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The rest of this however is to my mind turning into the proverbial witch hunt and seems a wate of time and money. Most of these complaints seem to be for actions that 40/50 years ago would have just received a slap on the face, different time, different morals, different culture. I am not condoning any form of sexual assault or abuse against women or men for that matter, but there does seem to be a retrospective applying of todays very PC attitudes that quite frankly did not exist at the time. It would not have been unusual for a gang of women in a factory to grab a young (male) apprentice and give his nether regions a good slap of grease as a form of initiation, the fact that a similar gang of men would never have even thought of doing the same thing to an office girl proves my point. Even back then, the one thing would have been considered a joke and something the young lad would just have to grin and bare as a part of growing up in a factory environment, whereas the other would have be considered as a crime against the young girl. As I said it is a matter of degree and what was deemed acceptable at that particular time, I can easily recall how even as a young man we were extremely wary and often highly embarrased by the antics of some of the women in some industries especially the female dominated ones. In truth they behaved no different to a gang of builders wolf whistling at passing women, embarrasing at times yes, but it was just a part of everyday life. I think that any well adjusted man or woman can easily deal with unwated attention by either a scathing retort, a brush off or a slap on the face as a last resort and with the actual exception of real and I mean real and not perceived abuse, then it is just part of life. I find it very hard to understand why these people take so long to make their complants, is it that they were afraid to speak out before, if so why? what has changed their minds? is it that the abuser is out in the open or is it just an opportunity to jump on the band wagon. Finally what responsibility do their parents have in all this? most of these complainants were early teens, groupies were a common phenomenom and most of these incidents supposedly happened during TV or Pop show type events. Why did their parents not supervise them better? was it a case of them thinking it may be a first step to fame by associating with these so called celebrities? I am afraid that far too much water has gone under the bridge to give any accurate judgement of events that took place in another time and place, sometimes we have to draw a line under a particular era and not try to apply retrospective morallity to it.

[Grandad]

Horus you echo my thoughts entirely but in your usual more eloquent manner

I agree it has become a witch hunt and I am appalled when I hear that the home of some long past celebrity had been raided at crack of dawn following some complaint of an event that is 'claimed' to have taken place decades ago. And then in due course we see the individual now in his seventies or eighties, an old man. Unfortunately it is so easy for some members of our society to see nothing more than a 'dirty old man', forgetting the fact that he was a different man in a different time.

As always the media climb on this band wagon and sensationalize these events even to the extent of giving them prime position in news bulletins, even at the expense of far more important international affairs.

But for me the whole affair was topped by the met when they saw fit to send two officers to Australia to interview one of these claimants who now lives there. Absolute waste of money as is 'most but not all' of the other investigations.

[LovelyLadyLux]

I read the initial post and my comment related to children/pedophiles. I'm not sure, at least I have no knowledge of, any type of similar situation here where adults are coming out with allegations from 50 yrs prior.

I'd find it ridiculous to even contemplate investigating allegations from that far in the past especially related to celebrities. Not saying that misconduct didn't take place, not saying that teenagers didn't throw themselves at rockers or movie stars and these same adults didn't sometimes take inappropriate advantage but and it is a huge but - then was then, times were very different and now it is simply a he said/she said in circumstances long gone cold.

Personally I'd be highly suspect of allegations coming forward now. Different if you were a teenager and 7 or 8 years pass to put you into adulthood and you gain maturity to disclose but decades? And I also take it back to patterns.....in an investigation one tends to look for patterns and if a celebrity has a habit of and pattern of abuse it will continue so there should be both current and historical victims. People and those with predeliction to offend don't simply start and stop. Opportunity does play a factor but the only way I'd see to justify an investigation is IF there are current concerns, current allegations and with these coming to light all the past victims also come forward.

Missed the point in the first thread Grandad. Never heard of the scenerio you described. Hope it doesn't catch on here. Just another flushing of tax payer dollars.