Egypt Islamists offer vision for sin-free tourism

Post by **DJKeefy** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:32 am

CAIRO (AP) — Islamists are dominating Egypt's elections and some of them have a new message for tourists: welcome, but no booze, bikinis or mixed bathing at beaches, please.

That vision of turning Egypt into a sin-free vacation spot could spell doom for a key pillar of the economy that has already been badly battered by this year's political unrest.

"Tourists don't need to drink alcohol when they come to Egypt; they have plenty at home," a veiled Muslim Brotherhood candidate, Azza al-Jarf, told a cheering crowd of supporters on Sunday across the street from the Pyramids.

"They came to see the ancient civilization, not to drink alcohol," she said, her voice booming through a set of loudspeakers at a campaign event dubbed "Let's encourage tourism." The crowd chanted, "Tourism will be at its best under Freedom and Justice," the Brotherhood's party and the most influential political group to emerge from the fall of Hosni Mubarak.

Since their success in the first round of parliamentary elections on Nov. 28-29, the Brotherhood and the even more fundamentalist party of Salafi Muslims called Al-Nour have been under pressure from media and the public to define their stance on a wide range of issues, especially those related to Islamic law, personal freedoms, the rights of women and minorities, the flagging economy and tourism.

The Salafis of Al-Nour are up front about seeking to impose strict Islamic law in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood says publicly that it does not seek to force its views about an appropriate Islamic lifestyle on Egyptians.

Critics say remarks by members of both parties meant to reassure the nation that they don't seek to damage tourism are having the opposite effect.

Egypt's year of political upheaval has hit the economy hard and shaken investor confidence. On Sunday, the new interim prime minister, Kamal el-Ganzouri, broke into tears in front of journalists as he spoke about the state of the economy, saying it was "worse than anyone imagines."

Turning around the decline in tourism is key to breathing life back into the economy. But tourism presents something of an ideological conundrum for the Muslim Brotherhood and Al-Nour. The two parties came in first and second, respectively, in first-round results in the voting, which is staggered and continues through January. Together, they've won an overwhelming majority of votes.

The Salafis, who follow the Wahhabi school of thought that predominates in Saudi Arabia, are clear in their opposition to alcohol and skimpy beachwear.

And they're still wavering on the issues of unmarried couples sharing hotel rooms and the display of ancient Egyptian statues like fertility gods that they believe clash with conservative Islamic sensibilities. At a Salafi rally in the Mediterranean port city of Alexandria recently, party loyalists covered up mermaid statues on a public fountain with cloth.

The Muslim Brotherhood, a more pragmatic political force, has sent mixed messages, reflecting perhaps the influence of some who would be more inclined to leave tourism alone for the sake of the economy.

Brotherhood and Al-Nour party leaders toured ancient monuments over the past couple of days in an attempt to show they're supporting tourism, releasing pictures of themselves smiling and shaking hands with visitors.

One Al-Nour party spokesman in the ancient city of Aswan told a gathering: "We are not going to close temples, we are not going to order the tourists to cover up or put restrictions on their freedoms."

Brotherhood leader Saad el-Katatni is also now espousing a hands-off approach. "Tourism is not all about what to eat, drink or wear. ... We have nothing to do with beaches," he told the semi-official Al-Ahram daily.

But in August, he told tourism officials that "Egypt is a pious country and the beach tourism and bikini should not be in public beaches."

Also, clerics like Yasser Bourhami, influential among hard-line Salafis, are presenting ideas for restrictions on tourism. Bourhami calls it "halal tourism," using the term for food that is ritually fit under Islamic law.

"A five-star hotel with no alcohol, a beach for women — sisters — separated from men in a bay where the two sides can enjoy a vacation for a week without sins," he said in an interview with private television network Dream TV. "The tourist doesn't have to swim with a bikini and harm our youth."

A leading member of Al-Nour, Tarek Shalaan, stumbled through a recent TV interview when asked about his views on the display of nude pharaonic statues like those depicting fertility gods.

"The antiquities that we have will be put under a different light to focus on historical events," he said, without explaining further.

He also failed to explain whether hotel reception clerks will have to start demanding marriage certificates from couples checking in together.

"Honestly, I don't know the Shariah position, so I don't want to give an answer," he said.

During Sunday's campaign event for the Muslim Brotherhood, candidate al-Jarf said the new approach doesn't have to spell the end of tourism.

"Foreigners respect traditions, they didn't come here for nudity," she told a crowd in a middle class district of Giza steps away from the Pyramids where many residents work in tourism.

Another candidate at the event, Ahmed el-Khouli, promised they would draw millions more tourists and criticized members of rival, secular parties who he said "promote nudity and prostitution in Egypt" for the sake of attracting tourist dollars.

Tourism accounts for roughly 10 percent of Egypt's gross domestic product, employs an estimated 3 million of Egypt's 85 million people, and is one of the top three mainstays of the economy, along with Suez Canal fees and remittances.

Huge swaths of the country, like the Red Sea shores with their stunning coral reefs and Nile Valley cities like Luxor with their ancient temples and tombs, are solely dependent on tourism.

This year, tourist arrivals fell more than 35 percent in the second quarter, according to government figures.

Still, residents of Luxor and Red Sea province voted in large numbers for the Islamists, which opponents said was a result of the parties feeding a "feeling of guilt" over things like serving alcohol.

Some Salafis acknowledge their approach could mean losses for the industry but propose ways to compensate, like promoting medical tourism or religious and educational tourism.

Their talk prompted an outcry from hundreds of tour guides and the minister of tourism, who recently held a demonstration at the steps of the Great Pyramid. They asserted that each speech by the Islamists translated into reservation cancellations.

The minister, Moneir Fakhri Abdel-Nour, said the impact of religious edicts, or fatwas, on tourism is as bad as the impact from Egypt's security troubles.

"The tourism industry is facing a double challenge: security ... and the fatwas," Abdel-Nour said Monday, according to Egypt's state-run news agency. "No one will be able to destroy or threaten this industry," he added.

Source: The Associated Press

Post by **Horus** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:53 pm

Do they really think that this will encourage tourism? That a couple will pay good money to go on holiday and not be able to have a drink in their hotels or use a swimming pool together? Egypt can and will do what it wants under its new political leaders and that is really none of our concern, what is our concern however is whether or not you wish to spend your holiday and hard earned cash under that sort of regime, I for one would not. In the same way that I would not dream of spending my holiday in somewhere like Saudi Arabia, I would just put Egypt into that bracket and go elsewhere and I am sure many other would do the same.

However I am sure that common sense will prevail and they will make an exception for normal tourists who will be allowed to drink and use the pools at the hotels with no restrictions.

They may of course make it mandatory that all expats have to abide by these rules and not be able to flaunt them by buying Pork and alcohol and consuming it in secret, they will also have to take steps to stop these same people from trying to coerce innocent tourists into purchasing it on their behalf.

I mean who wants to spend their holiday with loads of desperate expats harassing you outside of your hotel all day? The bloody caleche drivers are bad enough.

Hotels should only be for bona fide tourists to use and anyone else trying to enter or use them should be subject to full Sharia law and flogged in the street if they choose to contravene their adopted countries hospitality by abusing its new laws.

I am thinking that future holidays should be taken in the Old Winter Palace as it has a pleasant terrace overlooking the corniche where one can be viewed quaffing ones ice cold beer by the 'long term tourists' as they gaze upwards in envy.

Anyhow, I have chosen you all a suitable theme tune:

Post by **JOJO** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:39 pm

Horus wrote: they will also have to take steps to stop these same people from trying to coerce innocent tourists into purchasing it on their behalf. I mean who wants to spend their holiday with loads of desperate expats harassing you outside of your hotel all day? The bloody caleche drivers are bad enough.

BLINDER!!

Post by **LovelyLadyLux** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:48 am

I'm in agreement with you H. Saudi Arabia is quite restrictive and I wouldn't even bother myself to think to go there. I'm more than happy to take my funds to where I'll be happy to spend and 'they' will be happy to receive.

That being said I do believe that if I'm a tourist in another country I will do what is respectful. I will cover my head if necessary and will try to adhere to local customs so that I do not offend. This I do when I'm in areas that do not strictly cater to tourists. However if I was at an actual 'resort' and paid a fairly hefty price to be there then I'd darn well want to swim with whomever I'm with.

Post by **Silvermagpie** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:10 am

"Tourists don't need to drink alcohol when they come to Egypt; they have plenty at home,"

There goes places like Sharm el Sheikh then. Do they really think all the tourists come to Egypt are only after Pyramids, temples & tombs? We know quite a few people come to Egypt regularly don't bother with the "cultural stuff" and just enjoy the sun & beaches in the Red Sea resort area. If they cannot have beer or swim together, they wouldn't bother with Egypt.

I love the temples & ancient stuff here and they are the main attractions of Egypt for me, and I don't drink much & I'm not a beach goer either so that kind of change wouldn't affect me personally that much. But would I WANT to visit Saudi like Egypt? No.

Post by **Horus** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:56 pm

You have certainly hit the nail on the head with places like Sharm

they have absolutely nothing other than sun, sand and sea to offer, so what else would people go there for?

As for the historical places like Luxor, well quite frankly they have very little to offer for tourists once the morning temple visits have been done. It is not as if you can actually interact with the locals very much both on a social or a cultural level. It is impossible to just walk around and soak up the ambience of the place without all the constant hassle or being viewed as nothing more than a source of income. I treasure past holidays when on occasions myself and a local friend have sat together on a wall and watched the children doing a race down the Corniche for the October 6th celebrations, we drank tea together and chatted, clapped and cheered all the kids as they ran along, shouting encouragement to the ones lagging behind. It is on these rare occasions that you realise that things could be so different for tourism in Luxor.

So I am afraid that if the alternative is to sit twiddling my thumbs in my hotel or on my boat after visiting the sites, instead of relaxing and having a swim or a cold beer when I choose to do so, without my being subjected to the morality of others, then I will just go elsewhere.

Having said that, the latest figures for tourism in Tunisia and Egypt have fell off considerably according to Thomas Cooks latest predictions, so they will have enough of a downturn to contend with without killing it stone dead.

Post by **DJKeefy** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:22 pm

Im not really a drinker so it wont bother me, BUT what about for medical purposes, i was suffering from a pain in my right side, the doctor (Muslim) told me it was stones and to drink beer to flush them out, for a month now ive had a can of beer each day and the pain as totaly gone.

Ive heard this from a few Egyptians (Muslim) who's doctor as told them the same.

I always understood the Koran to state that: GOD IS KIND so if taking small amounts of alcohol to stop you from been sick then this would not be classed as haram if it is been used for good purposes.

Post by **Horus** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:19 pm

Well Keefy, beer is a diuretic and will make you pee a lot more than just drinking water, so it will be good for preventing Kidney stones which often occur as a result of too little liquids to flush you out. As a doctor myself, BA Calcutta (Failed)

I can heartily recommend that you should increase your intake to around 4 cans per night and a few more at weekends.

This will also engender a feeling of wellbeing in addition to making you get up several times per night to empty your bladder, thus enhancing the therapeutic effect. Even greater benefits may be gained by drinking the said beers whilst eating crisps, chomping chocolate and smoking fags while watching TV or working on your PC.

PS. I would not recommend passing a Kidney stone as something (a man especially) would relish, a bit like passing a razor blade.

Post by **BillH** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:36 pm

DP.

Post by **BillH** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:38 pm

don't talk about Kidney stones Horus !!

I had one of those little buggers a few years ago and it hurt like hell for about a year.
Damn NHS messing about with waiting times, meant I could only see the consultant when his waiting list was down to 3 months.

Finally I got the Lithotripsy treatment, and eventually all was well.

While I was waiting that day to have my treatment, the lady next to me said that she would rather have given birth to all her 3 children at once than have a kidney stone again..

Goes to show you, when a woman thinks that a man is not in pain and gives you the old "you should try having a baby" comeback....

Post by **LovelyLadyLux** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:24 pm

Kidney stones I have the priviledge of suffering in Trinidad where the 'treatment' was to let you lie on a bed, stare at a water stained tiled ceiling and writhe in pain........'til the stone is passed (SHUDDER!!) Wasn't a good 2 or so days and an experience I'll gladly pass.

In the 'tourist' trade you have to cater to people. If you want the 'rich' people to come and spend money then you have to cater to and allow what they want. The most successful tour operators know how to cater to the needs/wants/desires of the tourist (ok sometimes for some people probably really unrealistic) but that is the name of the game in tourism. If you don't provide for the people what they want then 1) you'll fail or 2) they won't come. I'm kinda thinking that while Egypt has 'some' stuff to offer I quite agree with you H that after I was up and out early mornings most of the afternoons were spent hanging about a pool or sitting in as much of an air conditioned place as I could find drinking 'wahid manga'.

I understand the stricter moral code of Muslim people, for them it is a way of life but for "us" it isn't and if Egypt wants to maintain high numbers of tourists they better lighten up and consider first the tourists needs - especially if there is an expectation of people taking long holidays there and spending their hard earned cash.

Am not sure if Egypt is quite realizing too that the rest of the world is in something of an economic downturn. Since there isn't as much free money floating about for holidays am sure it means that tourists are wanting to get the most bang for their buck and will pick locations who are willing to create total environments that cater to each and every whim and create the last memories that tourists are wanting.

Post by **Horus** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:38 pm

Looks like a few people have had the pleasure of this wonderful experience.

Post by **Silvermagpie** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:23 am

It's knida amazing to see one topic evolve into something totally different...

BTW, I've never had it.

Post by **Horus** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:25 am

It's called going off topic,

happens a lot on here, but just so long as we all keep chatting it does no real harm.

Post by **Glyphdoctor** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:41 pm

DJKeefy wrote:
"A five-star hotel with no alcohol, a beach for women — sisters — separated from men in a bay where the two sides can enjoy a vacation for a week without sins," he said in an interview with private television network Dream TV. "The tourist doesn't have to swim with a bikini and harm our youth."

You do realize that under Mubarak such a hotel would not have been permitted at all? When the owner of the Hyatt in Cairo dumped all his alcohol in the Nile last year and wanted to stop serving it the government threatened him with downgrading to 3 stars if he didn't start serving it again. The law currently requires all 4 and 5 star hotels to serve alcohol. This itself is a restriction of freedom.

The fact of the matter is that hotels are opening in other Muslim countries (including Turkey) that offer "sin free" accommodations and therefore there must be a market for it. It doesn't necessarily have to be a replacement for the current type of tourism but it should be allowed and encouraged as an alternative as it will attract a different type of tourist and therefore help the market to grow to reach new customers, which is essential if Egypt is going to meet its goals in increasing tourist numbers. Also, such establishments would definitely help to grow the domestic tourism market.

There are so many forms of tourism that have not reached their potential in Egypt and therefore a focus on new types of tourism is a good thing.

Post by **Horus** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:55 pm

I agree entirely

each country sets out its stall with what it has to offer and the people paying the money make their choice. Egypt does not have to sell alcohol or allow mixed bathing and conversly we the tourists do not have to take our holidays there. The bottom line being, it is the tourist who decides where they will holiday and not the destination country.

Post by **Glyphdoctor** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:12 pm

You missed my point entirely. There can be different kinds of tourism. Under the Mubarak regime, sin-free tourism was basically banned. Even topless sunbathing was tolerated in places where it was illegal.

As you yourself said, it is unlikely the beer and bikinis will be banned now. However, if you leave it to the hotels themselves to set the rules, then you will find more choices that attract a wider range of tourists.

And it isn't just Egyptians who find what goes on unacceptable. A poll was done in the US that found that 91% of Americans would not go to a beach where there was topless sunbathing going on. So that is a whole segment of the market that currently is not being catered to. Europeans need to get over themselves and realize they are not the only people that travel.

Post by **Horus** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:06 pm

I don't think I missed the point at all Glyph, in fact I agreed with you, my only caveat was that it is the tourist who will decide on an individual basis as to whether or not what is on offer in Egypt will suit them. Your example of topless bathing is a good one as is the ability to wear a bikini or go topless if that is your wish on holiday. If certain rules applied to individual hotels, then provided the person is aware of any restrictions or rules applying before they book then they can make up their own mind if they wish to stay at that particular hotel or not.

However if the rules or prohibitions are all embracing then that is also something that would certainly affect mine and many others choices of destination. So in the case of Egypt, rules that applied to a particular hotel are of little consequence to me if I were not staying there, but if those same rules were invoked outside, say as a restrictive dress or moral code, then they would concern me. As I said previously Egypt will make up its own mind and I care very little either way, they will sink or swim based upon their own decisions. There are far too many destinations in the world to let one become a problem when choosing my holiday, with things the way they are in Europe I feel that Egypt is yet to feel the cold wind of a full economic downturn and may well be advised to look towards its Arab neighbours for their mass tourism as it is already starting to do.

Egypt Islamists offer vision for sin-free tourism

Egypt Islamists offer vision for sin-free tourism

Re: Egypt Islamists offer vision for sin-free tourism