PARIS

[Grandad]

I joined a Facebook photography group during my 'sabatical' and a member posted this picture this morning that I found very poignant and reflecting the feelings of sympathy for those affected in Paris by the despicable acts of terrorism.

[Horus]

Yes I like that, good image.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Good photo and it does reflect very well what happened.

Paris attack is still very much dominating the news here and they're talking to many people who experienced the attack.

All the Talking Heads are saying we can no longer adopt a policy of 'containment' re: ISIS in that we're not containing or managing them in the least making it really clear this policy is not working.

[LovelyLadyLux]

My Saudi friends are getting more and more upset as here in Canada today (back in Eastern Canada) a Mosque was torched - Arson.

My friends are saying basically what Robbo's Omar said that if thousands of people are being brought in it is very easy for a few nutters to come with - but added that ISIS has been killing them/Muslims for lots longer than it has been killing Christians. They insist that ISIS is NOT Islam, is an aberration of their religion and Islam today, their Islam professes peace. If you have a problem it is your task to pray and pray and pray for a solution or resolution or resolve of the problem.

Just back to the USA and watching US News - apparently President Obama is still insisting on taking Syrian refugees into the USA despite almost every official in these United States calling for a halt to accepting them. Many of the Governors of the different States are saying they will refuse to allow refugees. President Obama has also today said that the Paris attack has nothing to do with ISLAM! ALL the TV News channels are now going crazy with ALL the Talking Head criticizing the speech he apparently made about this today.

[Robbo70]

Whether we like it or not, anyone killing and blowing themselves up, yelling Allahu Ackbar is a muslim. They may be a rubbish one, with warped and sick interpretations of the Book, but they are still muslims. In their own head, from what they have been taught, they are following the teachings of the Prophet. 27% of UK muslims agreed with the Charlie hebdo killings because it had mocked Islam. I am starting to believe there are many more sympathisers than we thought amongst us. Most wont go out on a killing spree granted, but most seem rather mute when it comes to vocally condemning what keeps happening.

[Horus]

Bang on the nail Robbo
That’s the real issue, we have all these people telling us that IS are not Muslims, but of course they are. They are following the teachings of Islam as ‘they’ have been taught it, whether or not that version is mainstream or not is purely academic, the common denominator is the religion of Islam.

[Grandad]

I have two comments to make in this discussion.
Firstly, if anyone watches 'Eastenders' on BBC1 (I am not an avid follower but did watch last evening) would have seen the character Tamwar Masood reciting a verse from the Qur'an which he said was a verse from his favourite Surah, An Nisa; and one of the first he leaened at his Madrasa. He quoted in arabic then gave a brief translation to his girlfriend.
This was either a stroke of forethought on the part of the writers OR it had been recorded and inserted after the events in Paris on Friday.

In my copy of the Qur'an, An Nisa is headed 'The Women' and does not seem to fit Tamwar's translation. In the programme I found it very timely in explaining in a few words the peaceful aims of Islam. Robbo, I would be very interested to hear yours and Omars comments if you can find time to watch it on iplayer. It is about 13 minutes into last evenings edition.

My second comment is a broader one. There is an old saying 'Never trust an Arab'. Of course I know that ALL Muslims are not Arabs and many are from countries that at first you may not associate with Islam. I have friends from Kazakhstan which to me is an ill-informed case in point.

Robbo has reminded us that a high percentage of the Muslim community were sympathetic to the attack on Charlie hebdo, but keep a low profile no doubt for fear of reprisal. Most of the perpetrators of recent terrorist attacks have been young men mostly in their twenties. These have become radicalised either in the mosque, or by listening to radical preachers, or even whilst at university. I am sure they all came from good Muslim families and were brought up in the GOOD preachings of Islam, and prayed in the manner of true Muslims.

As they became adults and their opinions were swayed is it really possible that their parents, siblings and friends did not notice changes in their behaviour? Was there no suspicion when they went off to Pakistan (then onward to Syria or Afghanistan for training) and returning to the UK?

In my opinion the families of these animals have a lot to answer for. I find it hard to believe that with all the publicity surrounding terrorist attacks, these families and friends did not have some suspicions in their minds. If so why did they not have the guts to report them? Sounds like a lot of 'mums the word' to me.

[LovelyLadyLux]

I have said "my Saudi friends" but in fact they are mature students going to University here and tenants. They rent from me but we do talk and it is easier to say 'friends' than go through a long explanation sooooo - I'm sure they are well vetted before being allowed out of Saudi and they are mostly from well to do educated families.

Anyway - Whilst they are here they are very active in our communities. They often wear their full Saudi traditional clothes but they group together and go to our Old People's homes for the day and will serve them food, visit with them. They group and go to other community venues and volunteer and help out and seem to all intents and purposes want to give back to their host country.

BUT - let me explain - On a spring break last year I invited four Students (ages 26 - 30) to come and visit here in the USA. They drove down, toured the US State building etc for a couple of days and then left to go to California. En route or during they stopped in Las Vegas and with selfie sticks took pictures of themselves on the streets with the Vegas flashing lights etc. I could immediately see on the one Facebook account posts from other Saudi students back home telling them to "GET OUT" of Las Vegas as it would corrupt them!!

My point is - they are (my words) spied on by others who have NO Problem reporting them, directing them and out and out telling them they are doing something wrong against Islam!!! AND these adult educated men LEFT Las Vegas.

I never did ask about it when my Student got back but at the time as FB cross posts everything I could see that their going there was causing lots of controversy. I do not believe our society would ever remotely think to engage in this type of "CONTROL" over others.

Another point - this was a story told to me from another Saudi Student (age 34) - His father has 3 wives and he comments on this often as the last wife was from Egypt and he rather sneers his father "Went International" for the last - anyway - his owns big trucks and when he was 16 they were driving through the desert and his father had to go somewhere and told him to "Watch the truck but do NOT move it"

Being 16 and knowing he knew how to drive he couldn't resist the temptation and so did move the truck by way of driving it forward about 20 feet and then moved it back. He went out and obliterated the front and back tire tracks.

When dad returned he immediately saw the truck had been moved. My Student said he lied and said 'no no I didn't move it' but when Dad said "yes you did" he knew it was game over so "I throw myself at my father's feet. I cry. I beg him. Please forgive me please please but may Father angry I disobey and then he beat me. I never disobey my father again."

Point is - it seems that the ONLY WAY the Dad got the guarantee the Son would never disobey was to beat him. Son had no problem describing how he cried and begged and kissed his father's feet but when push came to shove the ONLY reason he obey'd was because the dad was stronger than him and did without hesitation beat him.

After hearing this story I've kinda figured that that is how all the Dictators have operated. This is how other Arabs respect them and maintain the peace. I think we need to take this example and follow suit.

[Grandad]

Very interesting stories LLL. I think the evidence is there to see that the dictatorships of the middle east that have changed since the Arab spring have lost leadership, and respect, and have fallen into anarchy.

I know I have said before that Egyptian friends in Luxor have openly admitted that life was better under Mubarak and they regret the day that he was deposed. So much for western democracy?

A week ago an English man, who had been caught with 'home brew' in his car in Saudi (I believe), was allowed home after serving a one year sentence in jail, and escaping the additional punishment of 350 lashes. There is much hypocrisy in some of those countries and I well remember in a hotel in Dubai, a shady door in the dark end of the bar, through which would appear dish dasher clad Arabs who would sit in the dark and drink beer.

[LovelyLadyLux]

All the Saudi Students refer to each other as "Brother" (and to a much lesser extent "Sister" as most of the women are pretty much cloistered). IMO they all know exactly what each other is doing and have absolutely no problem calling each other out and/or reporting or tattle telling on each other even as grown men IF they perceive anybody doing anything against Islam. LOTS of peer pressure to conform.

On the other hand I'm more than sure any of them could beat their wife and none would say a word.

I have only 1 Saudi woman who is here as a Student and she just graduated with her MBA. Her husband has a BA, has tried to study here too but can't get the English so can't proceed educationally. They have 1 child and it was written into her marriage contract that she would be allowed to educate as much as she wants and the children will be 'limited' until her education is finished. It was also written into the contract that she can have a yearly vacation away (last year she went to New York City for 10 days over the Christmas break!) They have 1 dtr (almost 5) but she is pregnant and due to deliver early Dec which is exactly when her last Internship will end. (Co-incidence? Hmmmm) She is early 30ies so am not too sure how many more children will be born if any but sadly I don't know if she will actually ever be able to use her education IN Saudi Arabia.

IF she wants to pursue her PhD (and her English is excellent) she will have to stay in Saudi Arabia for 3 yrs before being allowed to leave on another Student Visa. As they have been out of Saudi Arabia for 4 yrs they must return and remain for a minimum of 9 months even before her husband could accept employment elsewhere out of the country.

As per all of them the old King Abdullah was very generous with Scholarships and was extremely encouraging of all his students to study. I've gone to National Saudi Arabia Day here in our little city and it is a day to behold with everything being FedEx'd in for the celebration. The NEW King Suliman isn't quite on the same page. He has been cracking down and making many of the rules stricter and if the grades are not sufficiently high you're given a 1 way ticket home that is good for TWO days ONLY!!

The old King also sent money so the Students here could engage in ANY outdoor recreational pursuit they wanted - kayaking, basketball, weekend retreats ...... AND one really cute one that I got a real laugh out of.....SKY DIVING! What I laughed at was that since many of the Saudi men are so small they were required to wear extra weights so on jumping out of the plane they'd come straight down vs "blowing around" up there in the wind!

I know they do all of this as I see all the photos and entries on my FB page every time they head off for an activity or sport.

All in all the Saudi students are fairly high profile, attend all public festivals and events - well the MEN do! They will encourage our little kids to dance with them, let them wear their Egals and Guttheras (the red head scaves and the black bands that hold them on). They are always smiling, friendly and passing out Qurans!

Honestly I think this group have been told there is a "stereotype" so you go forth and dispel any MYTHS.

[Robbo70]

I will try and find it and let Omar watch it Grandad, but in fairness, Islam in the UK baffles Omar, as it is predominantly Shia and he is Sunni. He finds them a little hypocritical in the fact they only seem to know the bits of the Qoran that suit them and usually quote half the story and miss out the bit on the end. The big BUT as he puts it. For example you can have 4 wives...BUT only with the agreement of the first wife, and only if you can provide equally for all of them. ( he would also like to add, why would anyone want 4 mothers in law)

He is equally as baffled by their behaviour and how much they get away with, demanding this that and the other. He knows full well, in all arab countries, any foreigner with demands would be taken straight to the airport and popped on a plane straight out.

In answer to your other question, re the changes in behaviour being noticeable to the family. I am sure it is, and I am sure they bring in the local Imam and try and talk them round and keep it all in house. I very much doubt you would get them to grass up their own family come hell or high water

[Grandad]

Thank you that response Robbo I think you would both find the Eastenders clip interesting. I feel sure it was included to influence public opinion away from islamaphobia.

And your Omar certainly does have a good sense of humour.

[LovelyLadyLux]

My Saudi friends do not like Shia. They see them as being more fanatical & demanding too and deny they are following the "real" Islam (but Saudis can and do have 4 wives)

I did have 1 tenant from Saudi who was Shia. He was extremely defensive with the other Saudis, refused to pray with them (lots of reasons as he explained to me), was very critical of how the Sunni Saudis treated Shias historically and seemed, to me, quite paranoid about all his fellow students. He made a special trip home to have his blood tested as his wife (14 yrs old) had been identified and he needed to confirm her blood (she was a cousin) was sufficiently removed to allow them to marry. He was early 20ies. That she was 14 was no problem as he explained that was the age his own mother married his father and she produced 12 children. He wanted 'at least' 6 but preferably more.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Watching the evening News - apparently there is a fellow who is now saying Paris was really a "test" run for future attacks and there was another attack going to happen in Hannover Germany today in a football stadium. The Germans got the confirmed credible info and was able to evacuate the stadium and whisk Merkl away before she even got to the game.

Definitely hope this is just idle chatter but am rather thinking it isn't.

[Robbo70]

An ambulance full of explosives was indeed found outside the ground in Germany and all supporters evacuated and the game called off. There is currently another siege going on in Paris, with reports of one dickhead jihadi shot, another blew herself up, 3 arrested and 2 holding their own from their HQ flat.

I am going to London next weekend... Think I will just pack several England football shirts for Omar and make sure he isn't carrying any back packs Our police and army are on shoot to kill instructions

[Grandad]

I have been very impressed with the speed and success of the French and Belgian security services in tracking down and arresting many extremists. I expect they are all or mostly known to their secret services but you can't possibly have every suspect under 100% surveillance.

[LovelyLadyLux]

I think when the attack happened and France was able to declare a State of Emergency it opened the door for them to be able to act against the Terrorist quickly and not have to bother with all the red tape.

IMO I believe the world needs to come together and make some sort of global law that if there is any sort of terrorist or terror act anywhere in any country that Country can then act and do ANYTHING necessary to track down said terrorist. AND that Terrorist is then turned over to a Global Court that has sweeping powers to terminate.

I absolutely hate it when Canada gets somebody because we absolutely REFUSE to terminate a life. Do you know how many serious American criminals run to Canada? They know if they can get their toes onto Canadian soil we might keep them in jail for the rest of their life but we will NOT extradite to any country who will put them to death nor do we have Capital Punishment.

I want Terrorists to have to face Global sanctions that are severe and immediate without years of appeals.

[Grandad]

I am very pro death penalty. If you take a life why should you keep your own?

[Horus]

I am very pro death penalty. If you take a life why should you keep your own?

Ditto

[LovelyLadyLux]

Seems the Mastermind of the Paris attack is now dead. Killed in a Raid. News media is just starting to talk about this now.

Seems it was Moroccan Intel alerted France that this man was in their country.

I, for one, am very happy this awful man is dead. Maybe the concept of an eye for an eye is antiquated but in this case I can only hope he suffered prior to passing. Won't even dignify his life or death by ever saying his name. He doesn't deserve any level of infamy at all.