Armed and dangerous?

[Scottishtourist]

I'm sure anyone who keeps abreast of UK news cannot fail to be saddened and shocked by the savage,senseless slaying of two WPCs in the Manchester area.
Is it now time to arm our police?
I come from police background and am mum to serving Police Officer,so I make no apology for my opinion on this.
It's a resounding YES!
This does not mean that I am ignorant to the fact that mistakes have been made, and there are many who point out that innocent people have been killed by armed police in UK.And of course,one innocent person is one too many.
But what chance do Police have against guns and grenades?
I am also aware that there are a lot of people with "anti"police sentiments and respect their reasons for those opinions.
What's consensus on this?
I note contributors on this forum flying Canadian,USA,Australian flags,etc.What's position in these countries?Are your police armed and has it been deterrent?Or has there been increase in civilian fatalities as result of this?
Let's not forget that these two young women were not heroes.They were doing their job and had a right to return safely home to their loved ones at the end of their working day.

[Horus]

Good question and I am sure there will be lots of varying opinions, my first reaction though would be to say that tragic as it is, would a gun have made any difference against a hand grenade as used in this instance?

[Grandad]

Scottishtourist, I am sure that the majority of people in these isles share your sadness at the murder of those two WPC’s as we do when any police officer is killed on duty. I say, majority, because as you have intimated there is a small minority with some grudge against the police and, like some of the vile posts on social networks, see people like Dale Cregan as heroes.

Terrible as this case is I don’t think it is a time for knee jerk over reaction. In my opinion if ALL officers were armed they would be at even greater risk and the criminal community would get even more guns. It is a question of getting the balance right. One police officer with one smallarm would stand less than evens chance if confronted by one or two thugs similarly armed. At this time all forces have highly trained rapid response teams who are called in if there is suspicion or known existence of weapons at some incident or crime scene.

That balance has worked well and I think that should continue….my opinion and others might have other views. One question that will be asked in relation to this case is that just recently an armed team searched a nearby property, I believe as part of the ongoing search for Cregan. There was obviously concerns that this could be an area with potential risk. Perhaps any movement of police officers into that area should have been accompanied by a firearms team. Hindsight I know but if that area had been identified as high risk, perhaps this tragedy could have been avoided. Cregan and possibly an accomplice laid a trap with one intention….to kill polce officers.

RIP WPC’s Bone and Hughes

[LovelyLadyLux]

Terrible and tragic. Prayers too all the families and persons this incident has touched. I've heard nothing of this situation or incident but my response to your post is...........

I've worked in Public Sector in two countries for umpteen years and one thing I have definitely positively noticed as time has marched on is that 'we' as a world society seem to be getting more and more violent and thinking less and less of the value of human life.

In Canada the RCMP are not armed per se but do carry weapons in their vehicles. Here in the USA I sometimes wonder how the Police are able to even walk given the sheer weight of all the guns/weapons they carry on their person.

Talking broad spectrum generalities one RCMP will answer a call to a situation. They are not armed, the alleged perpetrators know this and so 'tend' to react in kind. On the other hand here in the USA ALL Police are heavily armed and WILL react hair trigger to any provocation BUT BUT BUT so will the alleged perpetrators. Kinda a chicken and egg scenario here (USA) really BUT in Canada if something serious does happen the RCMP are not necessarily 'armed' to respond. They DO rely more heavily on knowing their area, knowing the people, verbal diplomacy etc. I have to say that 'verbal diplomacy' isn't necessarily a 'tool' in the kit of Law Enforcement (LE) here.

I will cease working in the very near future - not that I couldn't work for 7 or 8 more years but I've "had my fill" of violence and violence directed towards my profession (social services). The tipping point or the decision was when a father of 2 boys at the time of a court ordered weekend visit took his two boys into the home, locked the Social Worker outside (she thought the door accidentally locked her out initially), terminated his two sons and then literally blew up his house via exploding gas. Needless to say this has been all over the news and everybody in our Region will remember this for decades to come. While this is only ONE incident I'm describing the increase in violence requiring police presence is ridiculous. The "icing on the cake" (for me anyway) was when the official report came out about the dad/blow up incident stating the "Social Service people" could have/SHOULD have prevent this incident!!!! And the report went on and on to cite numerous ridiculous things that should have been done to have prevented this tragedy.

I know I'm getting long and windy here but my point is that NOTHING Public Sector Workers do can prepare them to meet the truly criminally deviant. I'd like to say criminally insane but will stop at deviant. I don't know if my carrying a gun to match your gun will only make you upgrade to a rifle. I upgrade to a rifle and you upgrade to a semi automatic. Not sure that Public Sector can ever match that which the criminal has.

I do know that violence is now common place, readily accepted AND there is also an attitude that Public Sector/Gov't/Police/Welfare Workers/Doctors etc are somehow 'responsible' for the actions of others. There seems to be very little personal responsibility shown any more and I feel more and more people are shirking all responsibility for all aspects of their lives. 'Its not MY fault I blew you up with a grenade. I had a tough life therefore it is ok for me to do anything I want to you as I'm only concerned with my own needs and I don't care how my needs trample all over yours.'

Should Police (who are people too) allow the criminal element to harm them? Should they and/or even COULD THEY ever arm to match the 'fire power' of others. Will ponder this more but I'm rather of a mind that for certain and special situations (not sure I can define these) superior firepower is necessary meaning IF it takes Police extra time prior to responding to figure out and know what they are walking into so they can be prepared then 'we' (the Public) will have to live with this. Personally I don't relish this thought at all but as these fine people are putting their lives on the line daily and are meeting extreme situations I think this is a practice that needs to be put into place.

[Horus]

I reckon that Grandad has just about summed up my own feelings regarding this, my first gut reaction was one of extreme anger, but on reflection much as I regret that tragic loss of life at the hands of these scumbags, I tend to feel it would only up the stakes so to speak knowing that our police were armed. Generally speaking we can deal with these incidents when they happen, but unfortunately it has to be after the event has happened, even had they been armed this incident would have had to occur before they could give a response and sadly that means that someone gets murdered just doing their duty, it is a chicken and egg situation and I can only add my own condolences to their families and echo Grandads sentiments, RIP WPC’s Bone and Hughes.

[Scottishtourist]

It's a tragic,unecessary loss of lives.
LLL,I reiterate your comments.
I've worked in public sector since I was 17 years old.(nurse)
I've been spat at,shouted at,vomited on and verbally abused by these very same thugs and their families that I've had no option but to treat!
I know this sounds very callous..but I'd rather pull sheet over dead criminal killed by the very same type of weapon that he so brazenly threatened to use...than pull it over unarmed police officer!
But,these are personal opinions,borne out of personal circumstances and experiences.

[LovelyLadyLux]

I know EXACTLY whereof and what of you speak ST. The things I've seen and experienced go on and on and on and on. After 28 or so years of working Public Sector in 2 countries I'm done. Often contemplated writing a book but 'who' would believe me? For me the most tragic and hardest to deal with is seeing young innocent perfect babies at only months old raped, sodomized, beat, battered, brain damaged for life, constantly seizing requiring life support to maintain NO quality of life. It is also equally tragic that 'we' the public are charged with treating these 'alleged' perpetrators with full rights AND to make sure NONE of their rights are in any way violated. It is VERY HARD to keep a voice polite and neutral when dealing with such cretins. Once charged the 'rights' a criminal has seem to far outweigh the crimes they have perpetrated against the children they have abused.

The cost to the family, community, worker(s) and all persons involved in these situations is enormous. It leaves one numb.

Couple years ago here (USA) we had 4 Police in Lakewood WA - small quiet town - stopped at a local coffee shop they frequented for years. A 'criminal' on early release laid in wait and walked into the shop mid-morning and shot and killed all 4 officers point blank range as they sat there. This same criminal was then aided and abetted in his 'escape' by friends and family. About a week after this incident criminal was shot dead, by another 'alert' officer as this criminal approached his vehicle (of course sneaking up from behind) late at night. Criminal had a handgun in his possession. Had this officer not been armed he would also have been a statistic. How can this be dealt with? How should this be dealt with?

It was later discovered that Mr. Criminal HAD verbalized many threats to his cell mates prior to his release that it was his intention to kill as many Police as he could on his release. Criminal made good on his verbalized threats.

[Grandad]

And the examples contained in these posts strengthen even further my belief that there are instances where capital punishment should be enacted.

I don't think that the debate about police being armed can be conducted in isolation. I believe that the absence of the death penalty removes a serious deterrent and, at worst, the perpetrator may be 'put away' for some years but eventually will get his life back.

Something those two PC's will never get........

[Horus]

We are at one again Grandad, in the absence of armed police we should at least have a credible deterrent and if that means reinstating the death penalty for certain categories would be s start, or at least a jail term that properly reflected the gravity of the offence.

[Ruby Slippers]

All of you have a terrific debate going on here and I'm watching it with great interest - and not a little admiration, I might say! I have a niece who is a serving police officer and my husband has another, so like ST my interest is personal. I would like to ask one of these young ladies how they feel but unfortunately they are both out of the country at the moment. I, personally, wouldn't like to see our police force armed as standard but I would very much like to see capital punishment back - and not just for certain crimes either!

[Horus]

The reason I said certain crimes Ruby S, is that I am not yet totally convinced that we get it right all of the time and a miss-carriage of justice may take place. However there are certain cases where the proof of guilt is beyond doubt as in the case of Brady & Hindley, Sutcliffe and a few other examples I could name such as being caught red handed in a terrorist attack, but if it were to be entirely based upon forensic evidence I would be less happy about it. That sort of case can still be given a long prison sentence and it should mean just that .... LONG, then should any proof arise during their sentence proving beyond any doubt that they are guilty then they can face the ultimate deterrent, if it is otherwise then they can be freed and compensated.

I am also sure that if the sentences handed down actually represented a proper punishment in the eyes of Joe Public instead of them getting 'life' = 15 years, commuted to 8 for good behaviour and out on parole after serving 5, then I think most people would be happy that these scumbags were put out of society for the rest of their natural life. Of course this will never happen while we abide by the Human Rights Act and allow our courts to be overruled by non elected judges mainly from countries with very poor track records when it comes to justice. I am afraid that nothing much will change on the justice front until we get a government prepared to tell Europe and the rest of the world that we have a better record in the human rights field than most of them put together and in future when sentences are given out to reflect the seriousness of a crime then no interference from outside will be tolerated and if we wish to give murderers and terrorist long jail terms then we will do so. Neither should we be bound by stupid rules that say we cannot send back a convicted murderer or terrorist to his own country because they have a poor human rights record or have the death penalty, that is the problem of the foreign national who chose to commit the crime in our country in the first place, their welfare is not our concern.

[Grandad]

I would very much like to see capital punishment back - and not just for certain crimes either!

You are really opening up the debate there RS

We don't send people to the tower any more, and mores the pity. I DO however think that the human rights issue with regards to criminal interns weighs far to much towards the criminal and not enough towards the injured party. For time immemorial inmates of Her Majesties prisons have been denied the right to vote....now the European Court of Human Rights has issued a directive that we should now give such inmates the vote. Preposterous!

I have said before in these columns that my view on capital punishment is that it should apply when someone has willfully taken a life, and there is absolutely no doubt about the person responsible. I know we then get into the 'unsound state of mind' consideration and there are instances when this should be taken into account but in many cases this is a legal argument to reduce the sentence.

I am convinced that people like Cregan, who has not yet been found guilty, and anyone who causes the death of a child by whatever means, should lose his or her own life. LLL obviously has first hand experience of these kind of people.....

PS: I was in the process of writing my post and did not see yours beforehand Horus. Once again I find you and I very much in accord......do you think it is an age thing? Society in general has become too 'namby pamby' and 'soft' on SO many issues.....and the UK has become a 'soft touch' for anyone who manages to set foot on our shores....

[LovelyLadyLux]

Unfortunately and sadly 'true' I do have too much first hand knowledge. I also have too much knowledge first hand of the victims who have to live with the results of that which has been perpetrated against them.

Given my knowledge I do not see 'capital punishment' as being a deterrent. NOW that being said I am a proponent/supporter of capital punishment. My point is that there are certain members of our present day society who for reason of being born genetically lacking, carrying psychological scars of early deprivation, addiction, non-positive socialization or because the sun has come up wrong for them WILL spontaneously react to any slight or perceived provocation with absolutely NO consideration for the outcome of their actions and reactions. They are focus'd solely on the immediate, never take or are incapable of taking responsibility for their actions and do that which they want so as to assuage any immediate need. They honestly care NOTHING for their victims.

Now, that being said, depending on the severity of whatever actions these members of our society opt to engage in the societal result should determine how they are to be punished up to and including death. I have come to know that, for some, no amount of education, training programs, rehabilitation efforts, hands on interventions will enact change in the criminal. It is my opinion that should these individuals/criminals engage in patterns of behaviors that dip into the criminal realm they should be punished accordingly and IF it becomes necessary to go to an "eye for an eye" level then this justice should be meted out QUICKLY with NO right of appeal. IF and individual is deemed to have committed a heinous crime, can never be rehabilitated and/or can never regain the public trust I see no good reason not to terminate this life.

Capital punishment IS in the USA however the appeals criminals are entitled to can go on literally for decades and I see it as being no deterent to criminals here.

Here there are rapid response sectors in place. These are highly trained individuals deployed to cope with the most tragic situations. Very few ever see the personal toll being on these teams takes on the individual members of these teams. Sadly I have far too much personal knowledge of this area as well.....

Capital punishment can bring justice to victims. It can bring closure. For me, somehow allowing the perpetrators to continue on 'with' options albeit far into the future for freedom somehow diminishes the rights of victims, their family and friends. They also need to be given justice.

[Grandad]

The voice of experience and words of wisdom LLL. So glad you are around.....

[Bearded Brian]

I agree with both Horus and Grandad on all except capital punishment. OK I have one exception to no capital punishment - the criminal should be given the option after serving 5 years to either continue for another 5 years or to ask for capital punishment. And of course life should mean life and for any crimes the punishment should not run concurrently.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Interesting concept BB but I have to ask 'why?' Why 5 years and why would the actual asking for capital punishment be left up to the criminal to ask? I also have to ask when would the count start AND how much influence would the criminals attorney/lawyer have in these decisions? Would the criminal be allowed to ask for legal counsel or would this be a decision that is totally up to the criminal?

[Bearded Brian]

I should really have said assisted suicide as opposed to capital punishment as I don't believe that any one has the right to order another persons death. The 5 years is to give the criminal time to consider his/her options and won't be a knee jerk reaction to a life in prison. The 5 years would start from the date of the verdict and no lawyers would be involved but may be a doctor to confirm that he/she is mentally capable of making the decision.

[Grandad]

I don't think I could support that proposal Brian. Life in prison these days not too uncomfortable (from what I understand, not from personal experience) and I doubt if anyone would opt for ending their own life. That would take a lot of courage and I don't think the majority of murderers are courageous.

There are many 'degrees of murder' but in the most extreme and proven cases I firmly believe that if life is taken, the culprit has no right to further his/her own life.

[Bearded Brian]

True about the comfort but I'd get rid of all those for all prisoners in the first place and make them do hard labour.

[Horus]

As I said before, if the general public actually believed that these people were being punished for their crimes then most people would be more happy. However the term ‘punished’ is not used, quite the contrary, the powers that be will not even use the word preferring instead to call it rehabilitation. Now I don’t know about the rest of you but I don’t want to see rehabilitation with all the associated costs that go with it, I want to see a real punishment that befits the crime they committed, so hard labour and a real life sentence would be a good start.