If you knew about Egypt what you know now.......

[LovelyLadyLux]

If you knew about Egypt all what you know now - would you have still moved there?

Highdsight is 20/20. Any regrets for making the move?

[Scott]

Not enough room here for all the regrets.
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We make a living by what we get;
we make a life by what we give.

[Scott]

Well, maybe I should try:

ISSUES:
Healthcare
Hygiene
Filth
Abuse (including torture and death) of animals and people
Rip-offs
Lack of any kind of respect for anything or anyone
Theft by those we try to trust and help
Heat
______________________________________
We make a living by what we get;
we make a life by what we give.

[Morgita]

Oh Scott, how dreadful you feel this way. Can you do anything to restore balance? You seem to have had a dreadful time. Your reaction is much the same as my husband's. Even when kindness is offered it's almost impossible to trust it as everyone in Luxor seems to have an agenda designed to part you from your cash. I can't abide the rank dishonesty of overcharging for all sorts of goods and services in a country that prides itself as God-fearing and morally superior to the dissolute West. I'm aware that many ex-pats seem to put on their rose coloured specs and pretend that this doesn't exist and I'm glad to see that someone can acknowledge the reality of life in Luxor. The most common theme of the apologists is that tourism itself is to blame. I'm not convinced. Luxor isn't the only tourist destination in the world. When is it ever acceptable to swindle and cheat? Could it be when you think the victim is a lesser human being than yourself? Ultimately it comes down to respect.

[Scott]

I try to understand the pressure of poverty - but I have known impoverished people in many countries - and they do not steal.

WE hired a widow with 5 kids from a West Bank village - paid her the recommended salary for weekly cleaning - until she stole my gold jewelry.

The older people seem to be, the nicer they are; the younger, the worse.

Egypt is doomed.
______________________________________
We make a living by what we get;
we make a life by what we give.

[cbrbddd]

OMG, that is dreadful that someone you paid to be in your home would steal from you!!! It is much worse than someone breaking in to steal!

Now I don't feel so bad about trying to lockup things in the safe or my luggage in my hotel room when I am in egypt. I understand about money and passport but I've tried to carry most of my valid electronic stuff out with me if I can't lock it up. And I always feel bad for doing that but I think there is good cause to be cautious.
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CATHERINE

I fell in to a burning ring of fire . . . . I went down down down and the flames went higher . . . and it burns, burns, burns . . that ring of fire, that ring of fire!

[LovelyLadyLux]

Dicotomy - Egypt is fascinating in many respects but the "people" themselves really put me off. "WHO" there can you trust? Does somebody REALLY want to be your friend (as in a true genuine friendship) OR do they just want the opportunity to rob you blind?

I've been in other poverty stricken countries but never experienced there what I've experienced in Egypt. I anticipated a country of beauty, history and 'differences' from here but the cruelty, dishonesty, non-stop harrassment(s) - have left me with the motto - 'Great place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there).

[Scott]

It is all just so profoundly sad -

I can't stop thinking:

'What might have been.'
______________________________________
We make a living by what we get;
we make a life by what we give.

[Winged Isis]

So why do you stay?

[Morgita]

I should think that is obvious. Scott has clearly committed himself financially and I imagine would lose a great deal by leaving in the current climate. It may be better to make suggestions about how to improve his relationship with Luxor. I love the place but not the people. Explicit sexual suggestions from a CHILD of no more than fourteen can turn you off you know. Especially when set in the context of continuous hassle.

[Scott]

Morgita is right - my money is in my home here - in a SOFT market. WE have lived for years in Russia and for a few more years in Estonia and we would happily go back to either.

We came here for my wife's love and study of Egyptology - yet now she says - give me the money and I am gone tomorrow - sh e says 'what I face each day is just too much.' I am in my 60's with medical probs and things don't get better.

I want to be happy here - it is just so very, very hard. We are trying our best.
______________________________________
We make a living by what we get;
we make a life by what we give.

[Morgita]

The international banking situation has altered life for many of us. I had planned to retire in three years on a moderately comfortable pension. At the moment it looks probable that the pension will be very modest and the age of retirement very much older. As my dear old ma would say "if it was raining soup I'd have a fork".
Scott, have you taken advice from experienced residents about how to change your relationship with the local kids? Getting involved with local projects can help to alter perceptions.

[Winged Isis]

I am so sorry for you Scott, that it has come to this. Don't take the following as criticism, just an effort to understand as I don't know the details of your history. I am appalled and saddened you have been treated so shabbily.

Did you stay in Egypt for any real length of time before making the big move? Did you stay in the full heat of summer? Did you live in an area where tourists usually do not? Did you only stay in hotels or learn to self-cater and deal with the locals like landlords, suppliers, tradesmen etc?

Looking at your list of issues, I would say at least 5 of those are obvious to even a first-time tourist (and are what immediately turns most off anything more than a holiday); healthcare is obvious after some basic research through talking to Egyptians and the many UK expats; the others after an extended stay of only a few weeks more than the average 10-day holiday. At your age and with your health issues I would have thought that would have been a major factor not to move permanently, surely? For me, close to retirement and as yet with no health issues, al hamdilulah, it is THE major issue. This why I have no plans to buy or build, though have investigated both before and after my marriage, just to rent on a long lease until I am sure one way or the other.

After nearly 7 years of visiting Egypt, usually staying about 2 months at a time, I am still unsure of how much I want to live there. Every trip is a research expedition to learn as much as I can to help me decide my future with this frustrating and fascinating country. I have met some of the best and worst people I have ever known. Obviously I have a major advantage in my husband being a local.

Even with an Egyptian husband, at this stage in our lives we don't intend to live full-time in Egypt, as much as we both love it; we can see the problems and the advantages of doing that but also the same for an Australian life-style, which is not perfect either of course. Once he has lived in Oz for a while he might change his mind... only time will tell.

Every time I visit I love Egypt more, but also find more I don't admire. As a way of giving back as thanks for all the delights I have experienced I hope to help in some small way those locals who want their country to change, if they want me. I intend to start with the charities (for both humans and animals) if they need volunteers, and have already begun to tutor children in English and French, having been asked by parents who are not happy with the local standards and see this as a way to a better future for their offspring (their words). I don't take cash from these people that I know they don't have, just some of their home-grown produce, as I know they won't accept freebies. It is not selfless piety on my side, there are benefits for me too; I cannot stand to be idle, keep my teaching skills and French fresh, enjoy the company while my husband is at work, enjoy improving my pathetic Arabic, and am making useful contacts.

I know I am not alone in having these ideas. Have you tried something similar? I think better integration comes through close interaction. Many expats (and I am not saying this is you as I don't know your lifestyle), move in and continue with a life as close to that they left behind, and their main contact is only with people they may employ in the house, which divides them socially, whether they want it or not.

May you find peace of mind and enjoy the advantages and delights enough to cope with the difficulties more easily.

[PRchick]

Scott wrote:

I try to understand the pressure of poverty - but I have known impoverished people in many countries - and they do not steal. WE hired a widow with 5 kids from a West Bank village - paid her the recommended salary for weekly cleaning - until she stole my gold jewelry. The older people seem to be, the nicer they are; the younger, the worse. Egypt is doomed.

Ouch. Did you get it back? But that could happen to you here also. I think the thinking is that you are so wealthy, you wouldn't miss that gold. Westerns are so rich that it's ok to rip them off because they have buckets of money.

I think I've told this story on the blue side at one time. Last time I was in Luxor, I had rented an L4U flat. As I was leaving for the train, I was with two Egyptian friends, and they were approached by two people who said they were there to clean the flat and I owed them money to do it (I forget how much money). I knew that wasn't part of the deal and, besides that, the flat was spotless so there was no need to clean. So I protested that there was no need for cleaning. My friend M went back and forth with them and was getting frustrated so I turned to R, who I felt was a little more authoritative and pragmatic. He just said very softly, "They are very poor, Mary. If you can afford it and want to give them some money, then do it. If you don't, then don't." Well then I felt like a real miser, arguing over such a small sum of money. So I gave them the money. After I got home and told Keefy, he raised cane with the landlord.

Have you thought of moving home Scott? There are many small towns here where the cost of living is very good.
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"A man who has had a bull by the tail once has learned 60 or 70 times as much as a man who hasn't."
Mark Twain

[LovelyLadyLux]

I object much more to the "conning" than I do to the actual giving of money. Poverty is horrible and I can empathsize with the locals who are desperate for any cash however the entire charade/con act they did with you PRChick isn't right.

Not sure how I would have reacted cause I do not begrudge giving at all BUT I also have to say that the "way" this was carried out - full of deceit and conning......dunno I would have given them anything.

Always having to be 'on guard' against scams is wearing. If you give in and give money to them this only encourages more scamming but I can understand the dire poverty. Just hate being constantly seen as a mark or target.

[Goddess]

I empathise with you Scott. Think it's only after being here for a while that Egypt and all it's frustrations start to get to you. Dealing with it 24/7 can really start to hurt after a while.

[Goddess]

Forgot to answer the question!
Any regrets??? ...... Not now, had to come to terms with myself and the fact that I couldn't change anything. All the expats I speak to up here tend to say the same. They absolutely love the place for about 6 months, then they hate it for a year or two, and then they move into acceptance for what it is.
Living here is definitely not easy, seems everyday there is a hurdle to get over.

[Scott]

Please let me thank all of you who have given such kind and understanding advice.

I want to love this place but it has been so hard.

Now, with sort of a reversal of fortune, I might have resolved it! With my deteriorating health I am now basically housebound. I get out of the house once a week for the grocery run but even then I sit in the car while Sharon shops. The point --- I don't see the streets much!!!!!!! See, every cloud has a silver lining!!

Seriously, I need to work on acceptance, as has been pointed out so wisely.

Sorry, Mary, but the jewelry, and the perps, disappeared!!! What hurt the most was the loss of 2 Masonic rings, one my great-grandfathers, and one given to me by my Dad (a one of a kind) when I joined his lodge over 30 years ago. It is hard to say these are just 'things'. With my Western upbringing, this was hard to take.

Oh, well, I guess one of life's little lessons.

Again, deepest thanks for all the kind thoughts - and your generous time sharing them.

My Very Best,
Scott
______________________________________
We make a living by what we get;
we make a life by what we give.

[PRchick]

LovelyLadyLux wrote:

I object much more to the "conning" than I do to the actual giving of money. Poverty is horrible and I can empathsize with the locals who are desperate for any cash however the entire charade/con act they did with you PRChick isn't right. Not sure how I would have reacted cause I do not begrudge giving at all BUT I also have to say that the "way" this was carried out - full of deceit and conning......dunno I would have given them anything. Always having to be 'on guard' against scams is wearing. If you give in and give money to them this only encourages more scamming but I can understand the dire poverty. Just hate being constantly seen as a mark or target.

Nah, I don't think it was a scam. I think the cleaners felt they were entitled to the money because they had been contracted to do the job. My point was there was no need for cleaning. That was beside the point to them and not their problem. I see that attitude here at time. It is a "poor" way of thinking.

It was a small amount of money and not like losing family heirlooms. I'm so sorry Scott. Again, a poor way of thinking. That woman could have done much better in the long run for her family by staying with you and doing a good job. Instead, she took the short term view of easy, fast money. Once that runs out then...
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"A man who has had a bull by the tail once has learned 60 or 70 times as much as a man who hasn't."
Mark Twain

[Glyphdoctor]

LovelyLadyLux wrote:

If you knew about Egypt all what you know now - would you have still moved there? Highdsight is 20/20. Any regrets for making the move?

No regrets. I first came here 17 years ago for a whole year after finishing my BA in Egyptology. I figured if I planned to make this country my career I needed to see whether it was a place I could handle spending time in. I wanted to see things clearly before I made any sort of commitment and I did that and so it was a decision made with foresight, not hindsight.

Every place has its positives and negatives. I don't think any one place is better than others, it's all about what your objectives and priorities are and how well the positives of a place mesh with your objectives and priorities.

As for making a big move like this after retirement, forget it! My parents made a move of about 150 miles after retirement and regretted it. They moved back to the area they had lived before within 3 years. Travel in retirement is a great idea, but moving I think is just not a good thing to do.
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http://www.glyphdoctors.com

[FABlux]

No regrets yet, occasional frustrations yes, but no worse than in the UK.
Been here nearly 3 years now and my only regret is that I have not picked the language up as much as I hoped because everybody speaks to us in English.

As for not retiring here I don't see why not. The climate is much better for our health, so we are able to get out and about more far more than we could in the UK. The cost of living is lower, so we can have a better lifestyle than we could in the UK. The sunshine means I do not get SAD for months at a time & we are able to study the history on the spot.
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[Winged Isis]

Mmm, yes to all of that, Fran.

[Glyphdoctor]

FABlux wrote:

As for not retiring here I don't see why not. The climate is much better for our health, so we are able to get out and about more far more than we could in the UK. The cost of living is lower, so we can have a better lifestyle than we could in the UK. The sunshine means I do not get SAD for months at a time & we are able to study the history on the spot.

These are pretty typical reasons people retire in Egypt but those really are reasons that have little to do with modern Egypt, its people and culture. And because a lot of people don't think about the latter before moving here, many wind up being bitter and hostile toward Egyptians when they find out besides the differences in weather, cost of living (which is not that cheap after all), and the history, Egypt is a whole different kettle of fish from where they came from.
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http://www.glyphdoctors.com

[FABlux]

I agree there are significant differences, but as long as you are aware of them (& prepared to adapt to them, within reason) before you move over they should not be a problem.

I think research and keeping your options open, especially in the early days, are the key.
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[Mimimay]

Goddess wrote:

Forgot to answer the question! Any regrets??? ...... Not now, had to come to terms with myself and the fact that I couldn't change anything. All the expats I speak to up here tend to say the same. They absolutely love the place for about 6 months, then they hate it for a year or two, and then they move into acceptance for what it is. Living here is definitely not easy, seems everyday there is a hurdle to get over.

Goddess this is such a good answer and sums it up so well ! I agree totally.