In or Out?

[Horus]

So today the official campaign on whether or not we stay in the EU officially begins, it seems to be neck and neck at the moment on in or out. My own gut feeling is that we would be better off out, but like many others I feel we have not had any real hard facts to base our decision on, everyone is still speculating. We get those who say that the EU has kept the peace in Europe for over 60 years, but surely that is N.A,T.O. and not the EU. Others say our security will be put at risk, why would this be? the UK has probably the best security system within the EU and that is not going to change, we also have the best defence forces within Europe, so once again what would change?

They will quote the figure that over 2 million Brits work or live in Europe and that could be affected. So what they are really saying is that to keep 2 million people who don't actually live or work here happy that the other 60 plus million must put up with the EU for their benefit? They say that as part of trading with the EU we will have to abide by their rules, again why? we import much more than we sell to the EU so it is us who should be making the rules and not the other way around. They say that in order to trade we must accept free movement of people, again why? we do not have to accept anything. It is not as if we are a minor trading country like Norway or Switzerland, we are a major world economy that can easily put in place the same obstacles that others may wish to put in front of us, all we need is a government that has the balls to stand up for this countries interests and do it with some vigour.

We are promised reform of the EU, but will it ever happen, the answer is no. If after realising that the UK was in danger of leaving because of certain aspects that cause us concern, that the rest of the EU cannot get together and make those changes or cater to our concerns, then that says it all. They know that they can make all the promises they like, but they do not need to implement any of them, had that intention existed then they would have given Cameron something positive to offer the British people and not just some vague promises of what may happen sometime never. The UK is unique in being a magnet for people wanting to move here due to our higher wages and other social services and as such we come under more pressure from migrants. As things stand we must accommodate all other EU nationals and deny access to the rest of the world who may have more to offer, it seems that we must accept the poor and unskilled of Europe and refuse those skilled people who really could benefit the UK's economy.

All of these so called experts have been wrong on just about every other issue. They said we would suffer all sorts of problems if we did not join the Euro, utter rubbish. Had we have been in the Euro we would be in as bad a state as Greece, unable to adjust its own economy in order to promote fiscal growth and deep in debt bailing out failed economies that Germany had pillaged with arms sales. The same applies to the European Monetary System the ERM, while we were in it this country was going downhill fast and no way to halt the decline. Thankfully we were forced to exit this system amidst shouts of doom and gloom if we did so, so what actually happened? We made a full recovery and never looked back, this country has created more jobs than the whole of the EU put together, so what does that tell you? But the final straw must be that Obama is saying we should stay in, well what more do you need, the most useless American president of recent years giving his opinion on the way we should vote.

[Jayway]

Referendum ? why bother, its all fixed anyway, just something to placate the sheeple. You joined, but kept the pound so I still have to fiddle about at the airport -

[Mad Dilys]

I was always against joining after the thing was up and running. We lost so much, and people that we traded with lost too. New Zealand and Jamaica to name but two as their economy was based on trade with the UK which was suddenly stopped.

I'd leave, but rather pick the time for leaving rather than have it foisted on us.

[Grandad]

I think the 'Remain' camp has stolen the advantage from the 'Leave' camp this week. I received the Governments leaflet To Remain, on Monday morning. Then on Wednesday I received a personally addressed leaflet from 'Stronger In', the official Remain campaign. But so far nothing, niet, zilch, from the Leave camp. They have seriously lost ground this week and why? From what I understand they were unable to form a cohesive group from the many disperate groups who all wanted a voice.

There can only be one official group that will receive the funding of £7million (I believe) to fund their campaign. They are starting on the back foot but have about 10 weeks to get their points across.

For my part I am as yet undecided. This is not like a general election where you can change the ruling party after 5 years if you don't like them. This is for all time and deserves very careful consideration based on the information that comes from the campaign. It is too easy for the Leave camp to highlight all the negatives of remaining. It is not so easy for the Remain camp to emphasise 'positives' except to simply claim we are better off IN. Whichever way I decide, I think the final decision nationally will depend very much on the 'turn out' on the day.

A low turn out will be to favour the Remain vote because I believe that many who do not really understand it all or are not really interested, will not bother to vote.

[Grandad]

Referendum ? why bother, its all fixed anyway, just something to placate the sheeple. You joined, but kept the pound so I still have to fiddle about at the airport -

Good time to change your Euros though Jay. Around 1.2/£. If the Remain camp win it will soon be back to about 1.35/£ so I would get loads of sterling under the mattress

[Grandad]

The impression I get from my grandchildren is that they are very likely to go with the Remain side. I believe that young people who have only ever lived as a person of the EU and who have probably experienced much travel within Europe, will vote to stay. This very large section of the community could and probably will have a significant bearing on the final result.

The leave campaign are focusing very much today on our subscription to the EU of around £350 million per week. What they are not doing is telling us how much of that comes back in rebates for a whole range of benefits and supports. The net figure is nearer to £150 million per week and although a very large 'Membership fee' it is an example of how both sides are likely to distort their arguments when, what the public needs, is true and honest facts and guidance......

[LovelyLadyLux]

Can't really chime in on this one but I enjoy reading your observations H. Very interesting synopsis of pros and cons and interesting observation from Grandad that the younger ones are preferring to stay with what they know however IF I had to vote I'd say 'leave' as more and more I'm convinced that all this global interconnectedness is not a good thing.

[Horus]

It just proves my point about useless politicians, the majority of the EU want the UK to remain, they know the value of our trade and our financial contribution. So what would a savvy politician do? certainly not what Ca-moron has done, you don't play into their hands by saying "if the vote is out I will implement it immediately", that is just showing your hand and giving people the ammunition to say that chaos would ensue for several years while we found alternative trading partners. What you do is to say that after an exit vote we would decide when to leave the EU and in the intervening period we would explore and set up other trade deals. Where would that leave the rest of the EU? we are not obliged to tell them what our diplomats or governments are doing or our future intentions in the world until we are ready, it is then and only then that we put in our resignation of the EU membership. After all they are not going to say "the UK had voted to leave so they must go now" quite the contrary, they will no doubt attempt to move heaven and earth to avoid our imminent exit once they realise that the UK is not that keen on staying in the EU and the government has a mandate to leave.

[Robbo70]

Im in the leave camp. I feel the money we pump into Europe could be better spent at home, and I am fed up to the back teeth of Brussels telling us what we can and cant do. No one seemed to care what we did in 1939 - 45 while we were bailing out half of Europe.

I am also fairly sure BMW and Fiat and Citroen will continue shipping us cars to sell regardless of whether we are their EU buddies. Time to make Britain a strong independent little island again

[Grandad]

What you do is to say that after an exit vote we would decide when to leave the EU and in the intervening period we would explore and set up other trade deals. Where would that leave the rest of the EU? we are not obliged to tell them what our diplomats or governments are doing or our future intentions in the world until we are ready, it is then and only then that we put in our resignation of the EU membership.

That is a very important point H that I have not yet heard anyone from LEAVE spell out. I think there is a strong feeling among many undecideds that it would be an immediate exit and then chaos would prevail. Those undecideds are likely to vote REMAIN for fear of the alternative consequences.

The REMAIN camp had better soon start spreading a better message now that there is ONE camp representing the LEAVES and Farage has had to come into line.

The transition would take a long time, probably 5 to 10 years but that is fine. Do it right for all time.

[Horus]

There are lies and damn lies and when it comes to politics the second always seems to be the case. Today we have George Osborne giving us a figure of British households being £4300 per annum worse off if we leave the EU and the economy would shrink by 6% by 2030.
Let us put this into perspective, first of all this is just speculation and how many predictions on the state of the economy had Osborne got right so far? Also they are not saying our economy would 'shrink' by 6%, but rather it would grow by less than expected so for example by 10% instead of 16% over that period, once again putting a false and speculative claim about future growth which he has been unable to get right so far.

Then we have the £4300 per household, the implication being that you and I would be physically worse of financially in our incomes by that amount, in other words we would somehow lose that amount of money. Yet another lie and a scare tactic, all he has done is taken his predicted loss to the UK economy should we leave over the next 15 years (if you believe his figures in the first place) and then divided the total up between all of the UK households to arrive at this figure. I could equally claim that you are all 'X' thousands of pounds worse off each year because you did not vote Labour in the last elections, this may well be true in some cases, but it is still a speculative figure and unlikely to make any real impact on most people, a bit like when they say the average earnings or house price is such and such. Or when they say that the UK is the worlds 5th largest economy and our assets amount to 'X' billions! so does that make you feel any richer just because divided up you would be very rich indeed? I doubt it, so once again a distortion of the truth and no doubt he will fool a lot of people.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Unfortunately politicians are masters of their own reputation and for far too long they've been creating their own elite class so as to garner power/money/prestige etc by their misrepresentations of the truth and, as you say, lies and damn lies. IMO this has given rise to the Donald Trumps who has a very solid mass following as he is presenting as very NOT political elite or part of the present cadre of politicians. I rather think OUR politicians here in Canada are not falling far from the mark and I highly doubt YOUR politicians are any less culpable than all the other Politicians in power right now.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Any status updates? (We get nothing here about this)

[Jayway]

UK tv is showing charts ---- the LEAVE lot are way in front today.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Interesting. We get nothing about it here.

Personally I'd vote leave. I can't see a downside especially if the leave is planned and happens in an orderly way over time (as it should).

[Horus]

I have also posted this over on the Blue side as it puts some stuff into perspective:
This just goes to show that when the remain campaign get challenged by someone with the political knowledge of people like Andrew Neil that their scare tactics of 'project fear' get blown apart, worth watching all the way through.

phpBB [video]

[Grandad]

It is also worth watching Andrew Neil's interview with Nigel Farage, representing Leave, on 10 June. A much more confident performance by Farage.

[Horus]

It is also worth watching Andrew Neil's interview with Nigel Farage, representing Leave, on 10 June. A much more confident performance by Farage.

Not seen that one.

[Grandad]

All around Whitstable Harbour today, the fishermen and harbour workers made no secret of how they will vote. There were flags and posters around the harbour supporting the leave campaign.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Seems they're not too shy about saying what they think!