Brexit

[BBLUX]

Calls for a public inquiry into Brexit are mounting among diplomats, business figures, peers and MPs, amid claims that the civil service is already planning for a future investigation into how it has been handled.

The decision to call the referendum, the red lines drawn up by Theresa May and Britain’s negotiating strategy are all issues that senior figures would like to be examined.

Bob Kerslake, the former head of the civil service, said an inquiry was needed into “the biggest humiliation since Suez, certainly since the IMF crisis [in 1976]”. The cross-party peer said he believed the civil service “is both expecting and preparing for this”.
“We do need to understand how on earth we ended up where we have and it probably needs to go back to the decisions around holding a referendum and the way the question was framed,” he said. “It would need to be a public inquiry, probably judge-led.”

Peter Ricketts, the former national security adviser and former head civil servant in the Foreign Office, cited the Chilcot inquiry into the Iraq war. “Chilcot took a long time, but it was cathartic,” he said. “The report was widely seen to have done the job and I think you can say the British system is better for it. I think the handling of Brexit has been such a failure of the process of government, with such wide ramifications, that there needs to be a searching public inquiry.

“What advice was given to ministers? Was it taken? Did the processes of collective cabinet decision-taking work? Were the right skills available, for example on no-deal planning and all the costs involved? They are all legitimate questions for an inquiry. It should have the powers of a judicial inquiry.”

One senior Tory peer said: “We want our Chilcot.”
Sir Mike Rake, the former chair of BT, said: “When the dust has settled, there really should be some kind of public inquiry, looking at both the issues around holding a referendum and the context of what has happened in terms of pursuing Brexit.”

Many figures are already pointing to May’s early decision to set out strict red lines that seriously limited Britain’s ability to negotiate. John Kerr, Britain’s former EU ambassador who drafted the article 50 process of leaving the bloc, said: “Those red lines laid down in 2016 emerged with no consultation with the country, the devolved assemblies, parliament or with the cabinet. Then there was the decision to trigger article, 50 still with no agreement in cabinet of where we wanted to end up.”

Sir Jonathan Faull, a former senior EU official, said: “It would be surprising if the events relating to UK withdrawal from the EU were not the subject of one or more inquiries. An important initial question will be when to start. The 2015 election? The 2016 referendum? The article 50 notification? The scope ranges from Whitehall and Westminster to Belfast, Brussels and beyond.”

There is also support in the Commons. Tom Watson, Labour’s deputy leader, said: “The government’s handling of Brexit has been a shambles from start to finish. It was a dereliction of duty to allow the country to get to this point, days before Brexit, in danger of crashing out with no deal or trying to force parliament to accept a deal it’s already rejected twice. We will certainly need a detailed postmortem of how this all came to pass.”

From The Guardian today.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nto-brexit

[Horus]

In common with most newspapers of today I would not wipe my backside on that left wing rag The Guardian, its anti Brexit views and reporting have been plain from the start, but that is another issue altogether.
It is also obvious that both sides in this referendum hold strong views and the chances of either seeing eye to eye is nil. I for one have come to the opinion that the leave vote is now dead in the water mainly due to self serving MPs and an utterly useless PM in Teresa May, she should never have been allowed near the negotiations.

So what are we now left with?
An EU ruling council that will in the future walk all over the UK, we have been humiliated as a nation and will pay the price for that.

We will now be subjected to all of the diktats of the EU, from how we trade, our monetary contributions, elimination of our rebate, our currency and banking system and our army as we are drawn into an ever more federal Europe and we can do nothing about it, we will have to accept it like cringing dogs, they shout “jump” and we ask “how high?” This snowflake generation would have the likes of Churchill and Thatcher turning in their graves, a once proud nation reduced to the laughing stock of Europe by weak and ineffective government, I feel ashamed to be British.

However every cloud has a silver lining, just wait until the next election, you will see the lowest turnout ever for the major party’s and a rise in the more extreme ones as people make their betrayal clear in a “what is the point of ever voting again” protest. Hopefully it will rip the two main party’s to pieces and bring down a plague on both their houses as every far right, far left and anarchist group gains seats and it will give those Remoaners the government they deserve.

In addition do they really think that this issue will go away? Just as the Remoaners constantly call for another vote, so will the Brexiteers, it is not going away. Public disorder will ensue and may even require military law to quell the demonstrations. Already we are seeing protesters blocking the M6, M5, M4, A55, A494 motorways and other main routes with go slow action in protest, but the likes of the BBC & Guardian are slow to report this sort of action. If people thought that the Poll Tax caused a government to fall, then you aint seen nothing yet.

We then have the likelihood of many people deliberately voting in anti Brexit MEPs to the European Council, if they thought that Nigel Farage was bad enough, wait until they get a load more causing disruption from within. Finally we have the likely scenario of there being an official ‘Brexit’ party at the next General Election, now the prospect of them gaining lots of seats amuses me and of course if they stand on a ‘leave the EU’ campaign, then with enough MPs they may just hold the balance of power and then we can instigate article 50 all over again, but with the surety that the next time it will be enacted. The only caveat to that is by that time the EU will have changed the rules to forbid anyone from leaving and we like the whipped dogs we are will have to agree.

[BBLUX]

I think one thing we can agree upon is that the whole situation that developed immediately after David Cameron initiated that referendum in 2016 has changed the face of politics in the UK for ever. What worries me most is the way that the population of the UK has become so polarised. It has brought sections of the population into conflict with each other and raised racial tensions. I cannot forgive DC and TM for doing that.

[Horus]

I agree, but in mine and many others eyes it is not forgiving Cameron for running away after his promise to leave if the 'Leave' vote won and for Teresa May for dancing to the EU's tune and not implementing the "leave means leave" promise she made or the "No deal is better than a bad deal" a mantra she repeated over 120 times. The failure to respect the referendum result is at the heart of this, never before can I recall any democratic vote being overturned by the minority of people who did not get their own way. A truly sad day for democracy when if you lose a vote you can challenge and then overturn that result because you don't agree with it, and that is the real issue here, why should anyone in the future even bother to vote in anything when obviously your vote counts for nothing. I know that I will never bother to vote again unless it is to disrupts the status quo in some way and that is from someone who has voted in every single general and local election since I was a youth of 18 years old, I am done with what passes for democracy in this country, I shall now sit on my porch and watch the country fall apart.

[Mad Dilys]

Well said Horus. I have always thought that democracy was an illusion - rather like Freedom. One man's freedom of expression for example is another man's insult and always has been.

What is missing now is middle ground and give and take. Anyone who does prefer to be reasonable (whatever that may be) is accused by both sides of being weak. It's all or nothing.

There is so much anger in the air these days, I think it's possible that the well prepared blue touch papers could easily be lit with disastrous results by any one of a large number of over inflated egos.

[Horus]

The bias was on show again yesterday when 2 motorists were prosecuted for leading a go slow on the M6 & M5 motorways in support of Brexit and yet a supposed 1 million protesters clogging up London streets goes on without comment, the same goes for the loudmouth who stands outside of Parliament waving his EU flag and obstructing the TV crews by sticking his placards in the camera.

[Ruby Slippers]

When you think about it, don't you think that democracy has been being gradually eroded for some time? We used to pride ourselves on being the land of free speech, generosity and above all, tolerance. It seems that we have been slowly stripped of those qualities by a series of covert laws. This is the first time that our so-called democracy has been brought to the public eye. I wish I could say the same as you, Horus, in the fact that I had voted in every election since I was old enough. Unfortunately I cannot, but I really do agree with you when you say you will never vote again, unless it's to be disruptive, so - may I share your porch and your sunset view please?

[Grandad]

To be honest I am fed up with Brexit and all those elected nobodys jockeying to justify their own importance with no consideration for those who elected them.
Afraid I am reaching a point, in desperation, of not caring anymore.
A program tonight on BBC2 reflects on the ten years since the MP's expenses scandal and how that impacted on public opinion and lack of trust in our MP's. I am getting a strong feeling of Deja vu.......
Hope you have a large verandah bench Horus, room for one more?

[Horus]

You most certainly can RS & Grandad we can watch the EU and this bunch of traitors go down the pan together, whilst glugging down a couple of bottles of (Californian) Merlot.
The gradual wearing down of everyones will to leave is having an effect, they have played a long drawn out game and everyone is sick and tired of it all, but people do have long memories.

I might add that throughout my voting life I have never been party loyal, I have always prided myself on voting on the basis of who I considered would be best for this country. That was my logic for siding with the 'Leave' campaign, I could see the future problems and pitfalls of remaining in the EU, I just hope that after 2022 those that opposed leaving will take the responsibility for the mess we will find ourselves in when the EU implodes as countries like Italy fail economically and Germany goes into recession, Spain will have even higher youth unemployment than it does today and Catalonia will have another attempt at breaking away, France’s right wing will continue to rise with a good chance that Le Pen will improve her vote thus weakening Europe even more.

Many of the Baltic countries are already rebelling against accepting more immigration and Greece is under the cosh of the German banks. Can you remember when we had a ‘Buy British’ campaign? Well like me you can join a ‘Don’t buy EU products’ campaign. Finally we are now seeing all this bumf on the TV by the biased Sky and BBC reporters allowing Remoaners to keep claiming that 5 million people have signed a petition for another referendum, but they fail to mention that 61 million have not, or 40 million if you only include eligible voters. Germany, France, UK and Italy are the 4 main contributors providing over 60% of the EU budget, therefore the remaining 24 are only contributing 40% between them, no wonder they want to keep the British milch cow on the farm.

[Mad Dilys]

I am being drawn into the Brexit debacle as I am moving to Spain. In her infinite wisdom Spain decided to give Brits a slap on the wrist whether they go or stay. So my advisors search every day for the current requirements and they are frequently changed. Nothing is certain it seems.

Actually considering the number of British retirees and tourists that support the Spanish Economy let alone the trade in fruit and vegetables with the UK mainland, I'm very surprised that the Spanish are so high handed. People have a long memory. Spain is still a land of The Siesta and official offices close for a month in the summer etc etc. They are on very shaky ground.

What I like about Ibiza however is that it is small and largely independent. They had a taste of the Club culture and when it started to impinge in the comfort of the residents they started to bring in bye laws to control and contain noise pollution and building tourist accommodation. I have to admire them as there is virtually no local industry for them to fall back on.

Happily the effect has been to make it more expensive/exclusive and a very enjoyable place to live - if you can get through the paperwork and can afford it. Gone are the days when you could just spend 10/20/30 years living there without becoming a resident and being a resident now is both obligatory and has responsibilities. Excellent.

[Horus]

I agree with that MD, if you decide to live somewhere else full time then you should be immersed in that society as you obviously intend to be and someone doing that should not be involved in UK politics unless you have returned home again to stay. Far too many expat types think that they should be influencing decisions that affect those of us still living here whilst they themselves are not affected by those decisions in the same way, they may experience a few difficulties, but that is down to their own decisions to live abroad.
As to Spains attitude, well it does make you wonder? however it is not unexpected as the whole of the EU seem hell bent on making the UK suffer as much as possible, but they should remember "what goes around, comes around" and they could do themselves more damage in the long run, we will not always be on our knees with the begging bowl out and people here have long memories.

[Grandad]

Big day today in parliament depending on which proposals Speaker Bercow allows to be voted on.
And how about those turncoat Brexiteers who now say they could support the PM's deal but with conditions.
I have to wonder how many MP's have actually read the details of the deal. Few if any I suspect.

[Horus]

They may as well let Bercow decide to remain in the EU, as a supposedly neutral speaker he has used every device in the book to prevent it from happening. He is very selective in which motions are chosen and then he digs up some arcane precident to block another vote, he is too fond of his own voice, a little man with a big ego. As to the hard line Brexiters? well what real choice do they have? if they do not back May's deal even though it was basically written by the EU to their own advantage we could finish up with no Brexit at all. The problem with her deal is that we end up paying them 40 billion before we even start any negotiations on trade.

[Grandad]

The problem with her deal is that we end up paying them 40 billion before we even start any negotiations on trade.

Yes Horus and that penalty is something that should have been contested. After all, none of that will come back to us as is the case with our current contributions to the EU. That will continue to go to other member countries for investment in those countries.
And don't forget that a large slice will go to the pension pots of all the EU employees from Donald Tusk down.

[Horus]

A disgusting stitch up by traitors.

[Grandad]

I am so fed up with the whole brexit thing. None of last nights 8 options won favour with MPs and now Downing Street is proposing a vote on part of the deal. Ludicrous! It is such an incompetent mess that I think the time has come to start again.
Cancel article 50. Have a general election. Have another referendum on 5 years time.
With the benefit of hindsight the process should be managed much better IF the Leavers win again.

[Horus]

It is all of this gerrymandering in Parliament by Remain MPs doing anything to thwart Brexit. Listening to tonight’s waffling after Andrea Leadsom spoke about the vote tomorrow you just could not make it up, “how many angels can you fit on a pin head” came to mind, it was all useless twaddle, I would sack the lot of them and why have another vote or referendum? We had one to remain in the ‘Common Market’ in 1976 but we did not get a vote when they took us into the EU under the Maastrich treaty. We had a legitimate ‘in or out’ vote on remaining or leaving and ‘out’ won, to accept anything else is a betrayal of UK voters and plays into the hands of the EU. Remember Ireland? Voted to leave, but were persuaded by the EU to think again, they constantly repeat elections until you agree with them and stay.

“Welcome to the hotel California” “You can check out any-time you like, but you can never leave”

Listen from 3.25 minutes in

phpBB [video]

[Grandad]

Just playing devils advocate H but I am seriously concerned that we could be forced into a no deal situation OR extended negotiations that could go on for years.
Although I believe the PM has worked tirelessly on the deal I do not think she is a strong negotiator and has shown intransigence to others' proposals.
I cannot understand todays vote for the Withdrawal Agreement which is only part of the Brexit deal. Ironically the Withdrawal Agreement includes details of the Irish back stop which has been one of the main reasons for the two previous heavilly defeated votes.
I cannot see this being passed and then we go on and on with this embarrassing saga. During which time industry and business is suffering with the uncertainty about the future.
SO would a 'No Deal' be SO bad after all? At least we could start to move forward...

[Mad Dilys]

Hmmm I listened to the latest nonsense this afternoon and thought - how has this happened?

I've come to the conclusion that it actually isn't really the fault of the current MPs or the PM all of whom are elected.

Who feeds "facts" to the MPs, sets up meetings with Important People and does the donkey work on Brexit while MPs of course are looking after their constituents and doing their day job. Or they should be doing.

I think the problem stems from the fact that MPs are elected by common vote and Civil Servants are not. I don't have much time for ordinary MPs they are usually self serving, many with an ambition to becoming EURO MPs with all the extra cash that that entails...…….

Remember Yes Minister? Much more close to the mark than we would ever have believed and definitely not something to laugh about.

[Horus]

The whole thing is an utter fiasco MD and they are still doing everything possible to thwart Brexit.
The EU said that they would only grant an extention IF Mays deal was passed, it has not been, ergo we should be leaving at 11 pm tonight with a 'no deal' as per the terms of our leaving the EU back in 2016. Unfortunately we all know that these MPs will find some other obscure way of denying us that right as per the referendum result, I am truly amazed that the people who voted to leave are tolerating this sort of twisting of our democratic rights by self serving MPs. I have always been a law abiding citizen, but this travesty had made me so angry that I really hope that people riot in protest, now just watch the EU make some special exemption to the UK not having to hold EU MEP elections and so avoid us electing a load of anti EU members into their parliament and that will be another stitch up as we will still be paying in with no representation during what could be years of negotiations with the EU.