What sort of religion behaves like this?

[Horus]

The topic did indeed veer off, nothing unusual about that as we do tend to open things up a bit more on here and usually I am happy to let that happen. It has evolved into a question of why others should be denied a choice just to satisfy the customs of a minority as applied to the UK, especially if it offends your own beliefs as it does mine on the grounds of inflicting cruelty and unnecessary suffering. I have no problem with the prayer as I don’t see it as serving any particular purpose in any event, no more so than I would object to an abattoir worker going about their duty and singing on occasions, to me they have about the same gravity.

But back onto the main OP topic, nothing has changed and we still have a woman condemned to death for supposedly changing her religion, so what religion, god given or otherwise allows this to happen and even considers it is OK to do so, whatever happened to free thought and speech and just who are these self appointed zealots that can justify to themselves and their followers the murder of an innocent woman for just refusing to accept the perpetrators warped view of religion and the rules that THEY apply to it? To date I have seen no protests from the Islamic world or condemnation of this barbaric act in the name of religion, if there has been and I have missed it then they need to speak up a bit.

[Choccy]

Which Religion was first Christianity or Islam? does anyone know the dates or Centuries? Just querying because Glyph said that everyone born is born a Muslim.

[LovelyLadyLux]

@H and RS - our News TV started reporting on this matter yesterday. They reported however that the woman was to be hanged AFTER she gave birth. Is your news reporting they're going to hang or kill her while she is still pregnant? Haven't caught anything about this today but just wondering if your reporting is different from what is being said here?

Either way this is awful. I rather wonder, although am not sure I really want to as I have a vivid imagination, what methods they're using to try and coerce this woman to change her faith? (Can only shudder and hope they're not doing what my vivid imagination says they could be doing)

[Horus]

Choccy, Islam is an Abrahamic religion so has its roots in a similar belief to Christianity of starting with Abraham. It also has many biblical people such as Adam, Noah, Moses and Jesus as patriarchs or in this case ‘prophets’ within it’s own teachings. Anyone who is a Christian or a Jew is deemed to belong to ‘The people of the book’ because they have a similar belief structure.

Christianity first began when Jesus of Nazareth commenced His ministry, aged about 30 years of age, so Christianity almost 2,000 years old.

Islam did not begin until Muhammad was about 40 years old which was in 610 A.D. So Christianity came first, about 570 years before Islam started, so it could only apply to anyone born after that date if it ever applied at all that is.

[Horus]

It has gone a bit quiet here on that front LLL, but either way if they hang her for her beliefs it is still utterly barbaric and why draw the line at her being pregnant? lets kill the baby as well, it is bound to be an unbeliever if it gets born, save them the trouble of doing it later when its grown up to an adult. Hopefully at some point in time if their vengeful god really does exist he will send them to eternal damnation for their crimes committed in his name.

[Grandad]

Yep, I agree with you RS. Ignoring the fact that the thread has drifted from the original subject, even the new direction has been drifted away from with spurious and irrelevant comments that, to be honest, I can't be bothered to read.

My summary is:
1) Should the Sudanese woman be executed? Answer NO! And public opinion around the world should add strength for her release with her child and unborn child, back to her husband.

2) Should we have the right to be informed how animals are killed for our table? Answer YES! If we feel strongly that animals are slaughtered in an humane manner.

3) Am I a Muslim by birth? Answer NO! I was Christened as a child into the Church of England but that was long before I had the knowledge to make my own decision. When I reached that age I decided to be a non believer.

At the end of the day, it is MY human right and MY decision whether I follow some faith or other and whether I choose to eat Halal meat (or salad for that matter )

Edit: Gosh, where did all that lot come from while I was reading this lengthy tome and writing my final comment

[Grandad]

To date I have seen no protests from the Islamic world or condemnation of this barbaric act in the name of religion, if there has been and I have missed it then they need to speak up a bit.

H, there was apparently protests at Khartoum University about human rights and freedom and better conditions. I am assuming that the Uni is Islamic. Whatever, the government closed it down indefinitely. So if you don't like what you hear, shut it up (or hang it)

[Glyphdoctor]

And where did I say that it was the reciting of a prayer that made halal meat less desirable to me? Let me reiterate so as to avoid you from continually veering off the path of what my objection to halal meat is in order to suit your own argument.

“I object to the practice of slitting any animals throat without it first being stunned unconscious”

Let me just make one thing clear up front because I think we aren't on the same page about the point of this discussion. I'm not trying to engage in a debate or prove you wrong. Whatever you want to eat is fine by me and for whatever reason. Everyone is free to make their own dietary choices. I'm just trying to understand your logic, nothing more. So with regards to it being less desirable, I quote you again:

certainly don’t want someone reciting fairy stories over it just to comply with another’s dietary requirements.

[Glyphdoctor]

You know, there are so many people suffering injustices in the world. If we raised our voices about every case there would be no time left in the day to do anything else, especially in cases where we can actually make a difference. We must choose our battles wisely.

[Horus]

My reference to reciting fairy stories is in context as to why the animal is subjected to cruelty in the first place and I am sure you understood that, the point being that if there were no need to recite a fairy story then it would not require its throat slit whilst still conscious and that is why it is less desirable to me. As I stated earlier, you are free to do whatever you wish after it has been humanely dispatched and if it is just to thank the animal for its life then you can do that just as easily if it were humanely killed first, what is such a big deal about it having to be alive and hear the prayer, it has no comprehension it is being thanked, or is this another man made construct to please a mythical being?

[Horus]

Here is a good link to the background of the womans plight.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/hangman-noose ... ml#Lz1I9Lv

[LovelyLadyLux]

Going on the logic of the Sudanese court - President Barak Obama's father was Muslim and his mother Christian. Means President O should be Muslim, his wife Muslim and his daughter's Muslim. Wonder what will happen when some Islamic nutter figures out about Obama's own daughters? Will they be captured, jailed and faced with the same fate? I realize that is far fetched but had to throw it out there.

I also hate the hypocrisy that Egyptian Muslim men can marry Christian women (and indeed many of the men in Luxor turned this into a bloody business and made their fortunes out of marrying Christian women) with no need in many cases for the woman to convert and all is hunky dory however let a Muslim woman marry a Christian man in a legitimate loving marriage of similar aged people complete with children and all hell breaks loose.

I don't know if world opinion or pressure will really sway this situation. I hope it does but am not too sure it will. Narrow minded fanatics are narrow minded fanatics.

[Horus]

Interesting point you make about Obama LLL, I could not have imagined many Americans voting for him after 9/11 had they known that as a fact. It’s a good job that most people would have considered it to be a load of rubbish to start with so just voted for the man instead, but no doubt that somewhere in the world are a few zealots who believe that America has a Muslim president.

[Choccy]

its unfortunate that most battles (If you want to call them that) skirmishes all seem to have a religious background. Even the skirmish's in Ireland were between the Protestants and Catholics. You would think that people with deep religious belief's would not be involved.

In this case I think its a woman living at the moment is what would be described as a mans world, to me I cannot see if it be a woman or a man, they are all human beings, and the taking of a woman's life for this sort of thing, reflects badly on this so called mans world

[Horus]

I agree Choccy, in this day and age it is totally unacceptable that women are considered as less than equal to men in any country, in any culture and in any religion.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Islamic women, IMO, are basically at the mercy of men. Men who hold no respect for human rights, fairness, equitability, beliefs - nothing. And even their own husbands can't protect them from these fanatical men who have somehow gotten themselves into positions of power.

IMO even if Muslim women were considered equal in all respects to men the fact that a man is able to take 4 wives is still the biggest insult (for lack of a better word) a woman can face and have to deal with in her life. Sure it can be written into her marriage contract that she could divorce if he does but if she is, for example, middle 40ies or more/professionally employed/mom to kids etc and suddenly the dear hubby comes home with a 20 yr old given the extreme social stigmas associated with divorce and all that she could/would lose - would she really enact this clause in her contract? Or does she just take the emotional pain and live with it?

I'm kinda thinking the latter.

I read and appreciated the link you provided Horus. Good one and getting back to this issue I'm not sure if political and social pressure will really sway these fanatics. I can almost see them popping her off as a message to all other women as to what can happen to them if they fall out of line. I'm hoping there is some mechanism to get her release SOON as in before it is too late and her complications from pregnancy get worse.

Also makes me wonder how many more similar situations as out there that have not been brought to our attention. Can't see this as an isolated matter.

[Horus]

Here is an article by Tim Marshall, a highly respected Diplomatic Editor for Sky News about the threat by the Sudanese to hang a Christian woman as an apostate:

If your country's laws are rooted solidly in the 6th century of the Common Era, then you will get legal rulings based on that era even though we now live in the 21st century.
If you accept the rationality, and validity, of those laws, for that country, then you can accept that hanging a woman after having whipped her is the correct response to her allegedly renouncing Islam. If you do not, then you might see such a sentence as having no place in a modern civilised society.

Some people accept the former. The British Government takes the latter view and has just summoned the Sudanese Chargé d'Affaires to the Foreign Office to be informed of that opinion.
That is the background and debate surrounding the death sentence handed to a woman in Sudan.

Mariam Yaha Ibrahim was born to a Muslim father but raised by her Christian mother. She grew up a Christian, fell in love with a Christian and married a Christian man called Daniel Wani.
The debate is because just as Judaism believes that your religion is passed down through the female line, so Islam says you are a Muslim if your father is a Muslim. The idea of choice is not acceptable.

Sudanese law is based in Sharia and the courts state Mariam is a Muslim. A judge has therefore drawn two conclusions.
Firstly, she must renounce her Christian beliefs and if she does not she must die.
Secondly, after recovering from the imminent birth of her second child, she should be whipped 100 times.

Her due date is June 1 and she is currently in prison with her son Martin. The death sentence will be deferred for two years to allow her to nurse the new born child.
Her punishment by whipping stems from the judge insisting she is a Muslim, her marriage was invalid because her husband is a Christian and she therefore had sex outside of wedlock.

The logic on both sentences appears to stem from the 14th Hadith of the Prophet Mohammed - sayings passed down orally and then written down.
It reads: "It is not permissible to spill the blood of a Muslim except in three [instances] - a life for a life; a married person who commits adultery; and one who forsakes his religion and separates from the community."

Against that it is possible to quote from the Koran which states clearly that "there should be no compulsion in religion".
However, that line is usually said to be about the problems of forcing someone to accept Islam, not about leaving it.

What does this have to do with the British government? It is tasked, via diplomacy, with promoting the UK and to a lesser extent promoting the values of the UK around the world.
The Sudanese government and legal system is at liberty to ignore the UK and the UK is at liberty to factor that into its view of what sort of relationship it wants with Sudan.
And what does it have to do with any of us outside Sudan?

That is less complicated. We are human beings and so is Mariam.

[LovelyLadyLux]

Doesn't seem that Islam is evolving very much does it? Seems pretty obvious those in power are living way back when and have totally closed minds. Extremely barbaric and backwards and these are only the examples WE KNOW ABOUT.

Always makes me ask WHY when people do or think whatever in a very definite and defined way. What is the reasonable humanistic answer to the question and what is the fear if one steps outside the box with new ideas?

[Horus]

Basically in a religion where each hadith can usually be interpreted to suit the reader then conflicting views arise as shown by the various branches within Islam and I agree that in terms of progress they do seem to want to maintain that 600 year lag when it comes to entering the 21st century.

[Horus]

This is a far more worthy cause IMO supporting those that broke away from such a barbaric regime as Sudan currently is.

OSLO (Reuters) - Britain is pledging 60 million pounds to help alleviate a humanitarian crisis in South Sudan, the government said on Tuesday, amid expectations conflict in the world's youngest nation will worsen in the months ahead.

Britain is one of South Sudan's main Western sponsors, with Norway and the United States. Norway pledged $63 million in aid to South Sudan on Monday, and is hosting an international conference to raise more money on May 19-20 in Oslo.

The new funding brings London's support for South Sudan since the start of the crisis in December 2013 to around 93 million pounds. Britain said its money would be distributed via agencies in South Sudan, including the World Food Programme and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

South Sudan became independent from Sudan in 2011. Fighting among various factions there has curbed oil production, vital for its economy.