Ramadan. When the gates of hell open.

Egypt has both Christian and Moslem communities and the politics of the Middle East are equally diverse. Air your views on the situation.

Moderators: DJKeefy, 4u Network

User avatar
Ebikatsu
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:48 am
Location: Cairo Egypt

Ramadan. When the gates of hell open.

Post by Ebikatsu »

I was just thinking about a verse I remembered in my head about Ramadan. A verse that said that in Ramadan 'the gates of heaven open and the gates of hell close keeping the devils inside'. It was going around in my head last night whilst driving back through Downtown and passing at least 10 totally written off blood covered cars by the side of the road.
It was going through my mind as we were cut up by a maniac in a microbus that almost had my door off and raced us down the highway and having to stop at a police checkpoint to report the maniac (wearing his traditional galabeya and skull cap and beard! ). Had him pulled over and him saying the reason he had to cut us up was because wait for it!!!! My husband was kissing me as he negotiated a U turn on the highway!
I wanted to cry because not so much of the fantastic lie he was telling the police, but that he was doing it dressed as a traditional bearded Muslim. My husband had him pulled over and I watched as this complete lunatic spat and frothed at the mouth all sorts of obsenties and not only us, but the reporting policeman and two passers by who stopped to calm him down. He then started on them and was shouting filthy abuse at them too.
Needless to say he was taken away and we drove on, his passengers all sitting on the sand waiting for another microbus because he was driving illegally it seemed as well as recklessly.
We drove past Maryouteya a few days ago, the bit where the camels and horses are washed in the canal and as we whizzed past I saw a teenager to my side beat a donkeys face about 10 times with a palm branch. The one they make furniture with with the thorns on. It was across its nose and mouth, it's bony face and it was tethered to the wall and not one car stopped as I screamed. By the time I could talk we were about 500 yds past and the traffic was piled up and I wept as I tried to tell my husband who was driving what I had just witnessed.
I couldn't get out . I wanted to get the stick and beat him across the face repeatedly with the stick. I couldn't eat or think of anything else that day.
I still think of it now and weep.
I know Egyptians are cruel and it's part of their make up, but never before have I seen such cruelty go on ignored by people standing washing horses. They just let him do it. Nothing in them made then want to stop him, as I looked back out the back window.
A Godless people. Their God is not the same as mine I was saying over and over again.
I have spent the last 2 weeks out in the streets of this country and I cannot see any mercy or God here.

This I am sure is when the gates of hell are opened.

I watch news and see Iraqi's who cannot stop killing each other just for one month. I see the madness in Yemen and in China now.
The Kings and Princes of house of Saud have gone to Morrocco for Ramadan. Is it because they will find better people there than in their holy land and their blessed city of Mecca?

I was just thinking all of this then I realised that that verse was not from the Quran at all. It was from hadith :(


User avatar
jewel
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by jewel »

That is really appalling EB and has sickened me to my stomach....it is the one thing I cannot tolerate this mindless cruelty - to other living beings. This means that this religion therefore is an inherently evil concept and its followers damned.

I have said many times that if the precepts of buddhism were adopted by individuals and governments universally ie peace love compassion not harming any sentient beings then this planet would be soooo much better for everyone and everything. I have to console myself with the fact that such actions will rebound on the perpatrators in one form or another but even that is a sad thought when you contemplate on how different life could be :(
User avatar
HEPZIBAH
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: Uk
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 7 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Post by HEPZIBAH »

jewel wrote: I have said many times that if the precepts of buddhism were adopted by individuals and governments universally ie peace love compassion not harming any sentient beings then this planet would be soooo much better for everyone and everything. I have to console myself with the fact that such actions will rebound on the perpatrators in one form or another but even that is a sad thought when you contemplate on how different life could be :(
[face=Comic Sans MS]jewel, buddhism may be a wonderful ideal to follow but the reality is even those who call themselves buddhist can do so pretty appaling things to the living creatures around them. The human being is exactlty that, a being that regardless of his personal belief system is still fallable. I am not makeing excuses for acts of cruelty, but I do not believe that if the whole world converted to buddhism we would not be without cruelty, wars etc.[/face]
Image
Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
-Aldous Huxley
User avatar
jewel
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by jewel »

Ok Hepzi I should just clarify that in my experience I find those who follow the precepts of buddhism - the main one is to do no harm and show love and compassion for all living beings - absolutely adhere to these principles. The simple fact of becoming vegetarian is very positive and creates much more inner peace and a more compassionate attitude.

The problem with humans they have become too attached to posessions and worldy things, not seeing that it is this self cherishing and greed that actually cause all the problems and suffering they endure.
Letting go and becoming mindful is a wonderfully liberating thing to do .....hard to achieve but worth working at :) :D
User avatar
Goddess
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 634
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: Alex
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Gender:
Egypt

Post by Goddess »

:cry:
Eb - that was an awful story about the Donkey.
I'm sorry to say that I have to shut my eyes to it all everynow and again, as it really could make you weep with the amounts of cruelty on the streets. Breaks my little heart.
User avatar
PRchick
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 378
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: Southern USA

Post by PRchick »

Unfortunately, there are people of all kinds in all religions. One cannot legislate religion, it has to come from the heart and soul. So even though one may say they belong to a certain religion, doesn't mean they actually practice, or even understand, the teachings of that faith.
"A man who has had a bull by the tail once has learned 60 or 70 times as much as a man who hasn't."
Mark Twain
User avatar
HEPZIBAH
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: Uk
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 7 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Post by HEPZIBAH »

PRchick wrote:One cannot legislate religion, it has to come from the heart and soul. So even though one may say they belong to a certain religion, doesn't mean they actually practice, or even understand, the teachings of that faith.
[face=Comic Sans MS]Exactly. :) [/face]
Image
Experience is not what happens to you;
it is what you do with what happens to you.
-Aldous Huxley
User avatar
New Gal
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: UK

Post by New Gal »

PRchick wrote:Unfortunately, there are people of all kinds in all religions. One cannot legislate religion, it has to come from the heart and soul. So even though one may say they belong to a certain religion, doesn't mean they actually practice, or even understand, the teachings of that faith.
:br: :br: very well said PR.

Within Islam, the concept of a personal struggle or 'jihad' to use a more well known term :roll: is of paramount importance. First you become a good human, then a good member of your family, then a good neighbour and member of society and then a good Muslim.

But no-one remembers that little concept do they? :roll:
User avatar
Ebikatsu
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:48 am
Location: Cairo Egypt

Post by Ebikatsu »

PRchick wrote:Unfortunately, there are people of all kinds in all religions. One cannot legislate religion, it has to come from the heart and soul. So even though one may say they belong to a certain religion, doesn't mean they actually practice, or even understand, the teachings of that faith.
Never a truer word spoken
User avatar
jewel
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by jewel »

That is so true of most religions.......just tonight it has been on the news about the muslims from UK who were plotting to blow up 7 planes mid-air!! It is beyond imagination how horrific that would have been .They have been convicted but makes you wonder how mamy more there may be? :(
User avatar
New Gal
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: UK

Post by New Gal »

jewel wrote:That is so true of most religions.......just tonight it has been on the news about the muslims from UK who were plotting to blow up 7 planes mid-air!! It is beyond imagination how horrific that would have been .They have been convicted but makes you wonder how mamy more there may be? :(
Because they were planning to blow up bombs doesn’t mean they are good Muslims, just that they are terrible people, often on the fringes of society with little achievements or life goals and basically dejected losers.

We don’t go around thinking “how many more are there” when we hear of ETA or IRA attacks do we? So why are all Muslims thought of as being potential terrorists? :roll:

Those guys on the news are in way indicative of the wider Muslim population and I for one have nothing in common with them and would NEVER endorse such horrific and barbaric planning. And Jewel, all the Muslims I know share my view. There are lunatics in every section of society you know :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

This is a tired and old issue. Seriously.
User avatar
Ebikatsu
Top Member
Top Member
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:48 am
Location: Cairo Egypt

Post by Ebikatsu »

jewel wrote:That is so true of most religions.......just tonight it has been on the news about the muslims from UK who were plotting to blow up 7 planes mid-air!! It is beyond imagination how horrific that would have been .They have been convicted but makes you wonder how mamy more there may be? :(
Did you see the suicide video of one of them who said he wanted the infidels out of his land?

Apparently all three are so called 'British Citizens' so what land was he on about! His land would be UK surely!

"The flat was also used by him and others to record suicide videos threatening further attacks against the West. In the video, he warned the British public about “floods of martyr operations” that would leave body parts scattered in the streets."

These clowns were LIVING in the WEST!

If it was so bad then why the hell wasn't he back in his parents Pakistani village then, organising his suicide missions from there instead?
User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1658 times
Been thanked: 2213 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Post by Horus »

Ebi wrote:
If it was so bad then why the hell wasn't he back in his parents Pakistani village then, organising his suicide missions from there instead?
For the very reason his parents came here in the first place, they found that this country was a better place to live. Most of them made good citizens and are of value to the country and contribute greatly to it. They however (the children) were all born here and benefited from a better standard of living and education that many of their parents never had. They also had the freedom to criticise and practice their religion without fear of persecution, unfortunately this freedom extended to the UK allowing uneducated and backward thinking clerics from backgrounds so utterly alien to living in a modern society into the country to preach.
These people with no real understanding of a modern country were allowed to indoctrinate these young people with their own repressive practices and outmoded religious views.
However the real blame should fall onto those more senior mosque members who saw this happening and stood by and did nothing.
Image
User avatar
New Gal
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: UK

Post by New Gal »

Firstly “the clowns were living in the West”. No they weren’t, they were BORN in the West. A big issue as Islam teaches that you should have respect and loyalty for the nation you were born into.

Secondly, no decent Pakistani villagers would abide this behaviour either.

The question needs to be raised as to why these men thought that they were entitled and indeed destined to perpetrate terrorist attacks such as this. What was it in their particular psyche?

Its alienation and a sense of dejection. Now to be clear, I am in NO way condoning their plans, hell no! But some youth groups and in particular children of immigrants tend to feel as though they don’t fit. They either don’t do well at school and college, remain in an impoverished state not much different to their parents of who, the majority, came from peasant backgrounds.

Coupled with the stupidity that is an affiliation with nations that they don’t even know the first thing about, Palestine, Afghanistan etc, its not difficult to see that men like are this are an easy target for radicalisation. In the more affluent parts of Pakistan and indeed India, there is an absolute rejection of incorrect religious teachings and the more dogmatic practising of Islam. Men don’t wear beards, women don’t wear hijabs etc and ideas such as a worldwide brotherhood are rejected as being tantamount to disloyalty to your own nation.

There needs to be a solution found, actually more than one, but it needs to begin with the families, I truly believe that. If old traditions were let go of, education and attainment the focus and social mobility up the classes the goal, then we would eradicate much of these issues.

UK and US foreign policy is where we need the next amendment to be made. Iraq is a blight on our history and to think that we went ahead and did what we did in that nation in this century is disgusting. Its not a legitimate reason at all for terrorist attack but try explaining that to the lunatics :roll: :roll:

These idiotic boys will find that the religion that they think they are fighting :roll: for is actually very different to what they have been taught and they are actually guilty of great sins. They are flawed and failed men who have let down their families and society and indeed their fellow Muslims. Same for the crazy clerics and same goes for the mad mullahs that stand by and let it happen. Judgement day will be a big shock to them.
User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1658 times
Been thanked: 2213 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Post by Horus »

Very well put NG :) that about sums up the main problems, especially this assumed loyalty they have to another country and its politics and usually one that they seem to know very little about, other than what they are indoctrinated into believing by ignorant clerics.
Image
User avatar
PRchick
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 378
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: Southern USA

Post by PRchick »

Horus wrote:Ebi wrote:
If it was so bad then why the hell wasn't he back in his parents Pakistani village then, organising his suicide missions from there instead?
For the very reason his parents came here in the first place, they found that this country was a better place to live. Most of them made good citizens and are of value to the country and contribute greatly to it. They however (the children) were all born here and benefited from a better standard of living and education that many of their parents never had. They also had the freedom to criticise and practice their religion without fear of persecution, unfortunately this freedom extended to the UK allowing uneducated and backward thinking clerics from backgrounds so utterly alien to living in a modern society into the country to preach.
These people with no real understanding of a modern country were allowed to indoctrinate these young people with their own repressive practices and outmoded religious views.
However the real blame should fall onto those more senior mosque members who saw this happening and stood by and did nothing.
I think you're on to something there Horus. One difference here in the US is that Muslim immigrants (and immigrants from the Middle East in general) are well educated and employed mostly in the medical, computer and reserach fields. It's difficult to immigrate here and they must have means of support and a sponsor. They have a good life here and usually do very well. I think that gives them less incentive to join in actions like this.

I don't know about foreign clerics. Maybe GD does. We only have two mosques in this city. One is all black congregation of converts with a local man as Iman. The other, and much larger, serves immigrants and foreigners. The Iman there is a young man of Egyptian descent but he is second generation American from Texas so he has a southern accent like the rest of us. :D
"A man who has had a bull by the tail once has learned 60 or 70 times as much as a man who hasn't."
Mark Twain
User avatar
New Gal
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: UK

Post by New Gal »

PRchick wrote:
Horus wrote:Ebi wrote:
If it was so bad then why the hell wasn't he back in his parents Pakistani village then, organising his suicide missions from there instead?
For the very reason his parents came here in the first place, they found that this country was a better place to live. Most of them made good citizens and are of value to the country and contribute greatly to it. They however (the children) were all born here and benefited from a better standard of living and education that many of their parents never had. They also had the freedom to criticise and practice their religion without fear of persecution, unfortunately this freedom extended to the UK allowing uneducated and backward thinking clerics from backgrounds so utterly alien to living in a modern society into the country to preach.
These people with no real understanding of a modern country were allowed to indoctrinate these young people with their own repressive practices and outmoded religious views.
However the real blame should fall onto those more senior mosque members who saw this happening and stood by and did nothing.
I think you're on to something there Horus. One difference here in the US is that Muslim immigrants (and immigrants from the Middle East in general) are well educated and employed mostly in the medical, computer and reserach fields. It's difficult to immigrate here and they must have means of support and a sponsor. They have a good life here and usually do very well. I think that gives them less incentive to join in actions like this.

I don't know about foreign clerics. Maybe GD does. We only have two mosques in this city. One is all black congregation of converts with a local man as Iman. The other, and much larger, serves immigrants and foreigners. The Iman there is a young man of Egyptian descent but he is second generation American from Texas so he has a southern accent like the rest of us. :D
For some recommendations I was commissioned to write I discussed that immigrant populations in the US and their children seemed more assimilated and loyal to the US for the reasons you have outlined PR. I am not saying that education is the one and only answer, however, when social mobility occurs, the immigrant population is indeed less likely to be radicalised.

Also, you have more mixed marriages in the US and to converts/reverts which helps these intercultural relations and provides more of a cohesive living environment. In my opinion, the UK is unfortunately just made up of pockets of villages where the immigrant population live as though they are back in their country of origin and the “going back home” syndrome just never leaves them.
User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1658 times
Been thanked: 2213 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Post by Horus »

Wow NG, you have hit the nail on the head :) your perception of the situation is bang on :)
Now I will try to say this without it sounding racialist in any way, but the biggest mistake that was made in the UK was to allow this ghetto mentality to exist in the first place. Instead of just letting people get on with their lives and fending for themselves we adopted an almost protectionist attitude towards minority groups. It resulted in such ridiculous situations as armies of interpreters having to be employed because people do not speak the language of the country they call home, so every social interaction that they make is by a third party. While I appreciate that racial discrimination and bigotry does still exist, it is made ten times worse by this artificial segregation that exists in favour of minorities. If everyone had just been left to get on with it instead of all this political correctness, I am sure that half of these problems would not exist today.
Image
User avatar
New Gal
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: UK

Post by New Gal »

Horus wrote:Wow NG, you have hit the nail on the head :) your perception of the situation is bang on :)
Now I will try to say this without it sounding racialist in any way, but the biggest mistake that was made in the UK was to allow this ghetto mentality to exist in the first place. Instead of just letting people get on with their lives and fending for themselves we adopted an almost protectionist attitude towards minority groups. It resulted in such ridiculous situations as armies of interpreters having to be employed because people do not speak the language of the country they call home, so every social interaction that they make is by a third party. While I appreciate that racial discrimination and bigotry does still exist, it is made ten times worse by this artificial segregation that exists in favour of minorities. If everyone had just been left to get on with it instead of all this political correctness, I am sure that half of these problems would not exist today.
Gee thanks Horus :oops: :oops: and I do agree with you to a certain extent.

Firstly though, the hoards of immigrants were actually initially asked to come over to do some of the menial labour work that the majority of the British population refused to do after the war.

Secondly, there were no immigration rules back then so it was a free for all and the majority of immigrants never thought that they would remain here, it was only meant to be a short term thing.

I do think though that mandatory English tests should be taken by those wishing to come over and settle in the UK, this is being rolled out as we speak and I also believe that the Knowledge of Life tests are flawed and need to have some sort of allegiances written in.

If you want to live somewhere, you adopt most of the customs etc without you having to compromise your core beliefs etc which in this case, would be Islam which actually TEACHES its adherents to show loyalty to the nations they live in and to respect the laws and customs of that nation.

Human rights legislation is in place to allow people to practice their religious and family lives as they want to without persecution so that’s not even an issue.

What I absolutely abhor and reject is the notion that some immigrants have that they have a false sense of duty and “respect” based on their perceived ethnic backgrounds. You should shed that once you are responsible for a generation of BRITISH BORN citizens who should always put their country before any other allegiances. Again, Islam doesn’t even come into this.

But who would ever agree with little ol’ me eh?! :roll:
User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1658 times
Been thanked: 2213 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Post by Horus »

NG wrote:
If you want to live somewhere, you adopt most of the customs etc without you having to compromise your core beliefs etc which in this case, would be Islam which actually TEACHES its adherents to show loyalty to the nations they live in and to respect the laws and customs of that nation.

Exactly :) if you wish to live elsewhere then you should adopt the customs and norms of that adopted country. Whilst no one would object to people keeping their own traditions and customs that make for diversity, these must not conflict with their adopted country or stand in the way of full integration into that society. After all, we are not talking about going on holiday to some place for two weeks, we are talking of living in another land because that is our choice, we actually desire to be there for some reason.
All to often people will claim asylum in the UK from persecution in their own country then start to foment hatred and disharmony within the UK. Usually forgetting that the country they apparently despise, gave them the freedom to speak as they do and to condemn our way of life as unacceptable, had they made similar utterances in their own country they would have been severely dealth with.
Image
Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post