Ramadan. When the gates of hell open.

Egypt has both Christian and Moslem communities and the politics of the Middle East are equally diverse. Air your views on the situation.

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Post by jewel »

I really think Ed Husain puts it very succinctly...and he knows the situation from both sides

Large parts of our cities have become Muslim ghettos, where you can wake up in the morning and go to bed at night without seeing a non-Muslim face.
They might as well be in Pakistan or Afghanistan for all the contact they have with ordinary Britain. They can send their children to Muslim state schools, go to Muslim NHS doctors, and do business at the Islamic bank.
Not only this, but we, the taxpayers, fund many of these Muslim ghettos. When immigrants arrive in this country to claim free housing from the Government, they are given a choice of Muslim areas to settle in. Why do we allow this? Why not offer these new arrivals housing where they can integrate with the British people and learn about our nation's culture?
Meanwhile, our prisons have become recruiting centres for radical imams, or Islamic priests.
Around 10,000 ordinary Muslims are in our prison system, sharing space with convicted terrorists and extremists, putting them at risk of brainwashing.
But instead of protecting them from this, our system actually directs them towards these forces. So when a young Asian drug dealer from Bradford's streets goes down, he is designated a practising Muslim, whether he was previously religious or not.
He is issued with a prayer mat and a copy of the Koran and is handed over to the prison imams, many of whom come from the same Islamic school of thought that produced the Taliban. Time and time again, I have seen Muslims go into prison as young Asian men, and return to their communities as something very different.
Then there are the satellite television stations that freely transmit the radical Islamic message straight into British homes. Thousands of UK Muslims-watch the Islam channel for their news instead of the BBC or ITN.
The tragedy is that it doesn't have to be like this. There are four million Muslims living in America, and yet they are not producing 'home-grown' bombers like ours, despite America leading the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that are so often cited by extremists as the root cause of their grievance.
Because of their stronger national identity, the Americans encourage immigrants to join their culture and newcomers are expected to be loyal to the U.S.
For us, it is not too late. We can reverse the damaging policies that have made Britain a seedbed for terrorists. But if we fail to do so, I fear we will see further carnage unleashed on our streets.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... atics.html


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Post by Claire »

Sorry Jewel but as always where do you get your info from? I was helping a friend with her British citizenship exam the other day and was really surprised to see what percentage of the UK population is from other ethnic backgrounds. I was actually surprised at how low this figure is. Sorry can't remember the figure but it was lots lower than I would ahve thought. I live in an area with a relatively high ethnic population but certainly have n't experienced the problems you describe. Yes there are disengaged youth all over the UK but these actually come from all different ethnic groups. Look at the behaviour of so many white youths when they come out of the pubs at night as an example of antisocial and unacceptable behaviour.
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Post by Claire »

And how does anyone know which TV stations are being watched in homes across the country? And what happened to freedom? Surely we can watch what we like on TV? We watch the Arabic satellite stations more than anything else in our house as well. Do you have a problem with that Jewel? It's our choice.
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Post by New Gal »

Claire, if the Daily Mail is being used as a source of information, that’s me out of that discussion. I was merely attempting to show a different side to the opinions but I should have guessed we would soon be at this point :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Again, its not even a issue on ethnic minorities but on SOME individuals who are just bad people. Yes, SOME of their backgrounds may have affected the manifestation of their anger/apathy etc but Jewel, what about the fact that there are also some other bombers that are not from ethnic backgrounds???
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Post by Horus »

NG wrote:
what about the fact that there are also some other bombers that are not from ethnic backgrounds???
I would agree, it is not so much an ethnic background, but a radicalised one.
Whenever these groups turn to bombing as in the case of Irish terrorism, Spanish terrorism, Taliban terrorism or any other terrorist group you wish to name, the bottom line is that they have all been radicalised in some way. What we are seeing today is young muslims being radicalised and brainwashed into these actions. My plea would be for these preachers of hate who cajole young men into killing themselves and others with promises of martyrdom would give it a try themselves, but of course they won't, they only make the bullets, they never fire them themselves.
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Post by Karenh »

NG and Horus well said it is definately the radical & extrreme people of any political or religous group that cause the problems not the everday person who in my opion are against all the attrocities. It dosnt really matter what faith or political group you are its down to the individual person how they live and I for one think it would be a much better world if the terrorists and clerics etc brainwashing these people all learnt that wars solve nothing!
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Post by jewel »

The quote I gave was by Ed Hosain (a former Islamic extremist his book "the Islamist" worth a read)
and strange to say a lot of what he says is echoed by the BNP....he tells it like it is, and if anyone else were to say it they would be branded a racist.
He has been interviewed NG by several UK papers - even the Independent and the guardian, I just thought the one by the Mail put it very succinctly.

This was from the telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/pers ... place.html

"Muslim insularity must cease and, as one country, we ought to realise that Muslims' problems cannot be resolved in isolation by Muslims alone.
Britain's Muslims are at a critical juncture. A fortnight ago, a terrorism-supporting group gathered with 300 supporters in council property in Britain's most densely Muslim-populated area, Tower Hamlets, and called for rejection of British law and support for convicted terrorists in prison. They beamed in from Lebanon the banned cleric Omar Bakri, who called on young Muslims to disobey the law.

In Britain's most prominent mosque, in Regent's Park, there are meetings every weekend of a group dedicated to creating an Islamist dictatorship, destroying Israel and which advocates Muslim supremacist views. These lines will be read: nothing will be done. Muslim leaders will remain as ostriches, and wider society will not "interfere", lest we cause "offence".
And yet "outside" pressure is starting to produce results. Under pressure from the media and civil society, the Muslim Council of Britain this year attended Holocaust Memorial Day for the first time. But where is that pressure in other areas where Muslims remain insular?

Why, for example, is wider society keen to turn a blind eye to the mushrooming of so-called faith schools, where British teenage girls are subjected to Saudi-style clothing of black gloves, face covers and sack-like overalls?
Matters are made worse by unsustainable levels of immigration flooding our mosques; men with no experience of British society and a poor grasp of English becoming imams and spreading their ideas throughout Muslim communities. Just as we adjust to our surroundings in Britain, a new wave of immigrants are reintroducing village dialects, customs and attire, and adding to the confusion of young British Pakistanis or Bengalis. The British people deserve a serious debate on immigration, free from yells of racism.

I am a member of Labour and I am ashamed that the party, after 11 years in power, shies away from addressing the failures of multiculturalism. Pandering to so-called cultural differences has led to more than 70 per cent of Pakistani and Bangladeshi women in Britain today being unemployed. What happened to racial and gender equality

Wider society has a moral and civic duty to ensure that parts of our country do not become Balkanised. This means having the courage to explain that secularism does not mean being anti-religious, but a neutral public space. It also means having the courage to stand up for the ideas that make Britain the country that it is today. When Muslim seminaries in Dewsbury teach Locke's A Letter Concerning Toleration, then we can rest assured that British Muslim clerics have truly understood Britain. At present, we are light years away."


It would appear the root of practically all evil is religion – especially as it impinges on the backward primitive minds of backward primitive peoples who have come to live in the UK in recent times. People who then teach their many offspring to hate the nation that took them in and gave them succour. It is as a direct result of our disastrous immigration policies that religion is now a luxury we can no longer afford.
So many of us have said these things in private for years but never spoken out for fear of being labelled 'racist'. There are a few simple steps to take.
1.. This is Britain, we speak English (or Welsh) learn it. We do not provide interpreters, if you need one you pay for them. Learn English.
2. All speeches or sermons in public buildings to be given in English or simultameous translation facilities to be available on request.
3. All state schools to be non-faith based in 10 years time.
4. Religious Education to be replaced by philosophy, culture and ethics, and to be compulsory for all pupils. comparative religion to be part of the syllabus with no right of withdrawal from lessons.
5. Female genital mutilation to be totally outlawed with medical examination of girls on school entry and school transfer. Any found to have been so 'assaulted' will lead to prosecution of parents for child cruelty.

Make no mistake even muslims who appear "moderate" naturally support the global aims of Islam it is in the nature of the religion - after 9/11 a huge majority were in support of the terrorist actions
The goal of a worldwide caliphate is emerging as an increasingly important strand in Islamic ideology. Events are moving fast. Hizb ut-Tahrir, which has just staged mass rallies around the world, is making great progress in spreading its message of a “peaceful” transition to an Islamic empire. This is the aim of the religion and sharia law as seen in Saudi and other muslim states, despite thinking that in some way muslims are "moderate" or trying to modernize or integrate - far from it.

I do not see serious signs of a Europeanization of Islam anywhere, a move that would be expressed in a relativization of religion, a self-critical view of the history of Islamic imperialism…we are light years away from such a development…On the contrary, I think that we are participating in the Islamization of Europe, reflected both in daily occurrences and in our way of thinking…All the racist fanaticism that permeates the Arab countries and Iran has been manifested in Europe in recent years.
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Post by PRchick »

Horus wrote:Wow NG, you have hit the nail on the head :) your perception of the situation is bang on :)
Now I will try to say this without it sounding racialist in any way, but the biggest mistake that was made in the UK was to allow this ghetto mentality to exist in the first place. Instead of just letting people get on with their lives and fending for themselves we adopted an almost protectionist attitude towards minority groups. It resulted in such ridiculous situations as armies of interpreters having to be employed because people do not speak the language of the country they call home, so every social interaction that they make is by a third party. While I appreciate that racial discrimination and bigotry does still exist, it is made ten times worse by this artificial segregation that exists in favour of minorities. If everyone had just been left to get on with it instead of all this political correctness, I am sure that half of these problems would not exist today.
Well, honestly, it's almost impossible here to get by without knowing English. Although in the really big cities there are ethnic pockets, in most cities, that's just not possible. For some reason, immigrants here often do not teach their children their native language if the parents can speak English. In families where the parents do not speak English well, the children end up being the interpretors. Although here locally we've had such an influx of hispanics over the last few years, many of the city and utilities offer a spanish option on their telephone services. Touch one for English or Touch Two for Spanish. But, as anyone who has had to do a spanish language version of a utility brochure (PRchick points to herself), the reality is that we have sooooo many people from different spanish speaking country and the Spanish varies greatly from country to country. It's a nightmare. The Spanish they use in Spain would not be understood here. But yet the Spanish in Mexico is much different from the Spanish in Cuba or in Argentina. The schools have a terrible time with it and have to get all the hispanic children up on English very quickly just so everyone can talk.

And there are so many services for immigrants. English as a second language classes are offered for free by many schools, churches and service organizations. My church has a program for immigrant women to teach them office skills and help them get settled. I know the Catholic churches work extensively with Hispanic families to get them settled. My church also has a program that sends teams of doctors, nurses, and dentists to visit migrant workers (mostly Hispanic) who come for the Harvest.

I have to say that immigrants by and large have been hard workers here. The Hispanics came to do jobs that most Americans would not do and many have done quite well and have ended up buying or starting businesses. I've heard many employers say the Hispanics are very industrious and dependable.

Having said that, I know the big cities have problems due to the same thing you are talking about Horus. Too many immigrants in ethnic pockets, young men not employed and getting into trouble.

My oldest had two friends of Korean descent in high school. One second generation American. The other first generation from Korea. When she introduced them, the friend from Korea was amazed that the Korean/American friend could not speak Korean. She ended up teaching her the language and in return got help with her English.
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Post by New Gal »

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: I have met Ed Hosain on a number of occasions Jewel, however, due to the nature of my work I am not going to comment on the majority of his quotes of his that you have used but to give you all an indication of how twisted he can get: “Make no mistake even muslims who appear "moderate" naturally support the global aims of Islam it is in the nature of the religion - after 9/11 a huge majority were in support of the terrorist actions”, err, I really don’t think so. I would never support any such acts nor would the vast majority of Muslims.

Once an extremist, ALWAYS an extremist. Research has shown that the mindset of a potential suicide bomber wont ever move away from that stance, he may switch over to a different ideology but once the decision has been made to kill AND be killed, he will follow through.


I urge the more open minded members of the forum not to use his articles as being indicative of the general Muslim mindset when it really isn’t so at all in any shape or form.
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Post by Horus »

I was listening to a SKY TV report whilst reading the forum and a particularly interesting fact emerged, over 90% of muslim deaths from terrorism are at the hands of fellow muslims trying to further their own agenda. There was also an item on the debate between Sayyid Imam al-Sharif, a former Al Queda leader now held in an Egyptian jail and Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden’s chief lieutenant.

In a fax from his prison cell he is openly saying that they got it wrong and that the Al Queda type jihad is not the way forward. Needless to say the Al Queda second in command has been doing his best to counter this alternative point of view, but by all accounts it is getting some serious debate in some Arab countries.

Here is the link: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008 ... ntPage=all
Who knows, maybe common sense will eventually prevail. :(
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Post by Ebikatsu »

If you ask any potential suicide bomber why they plan to blow up someone or something the answer they will give you is one word. "Palestine".

That would be closely followed by 'Western interference in the Middle East'.

Nothing is going to change until both those issues are resolved.

I've yet to see one suicide bombers video that doesn't mention Palestine, Israel and the USA.

When a suicide bomber has lost all hope and see's no hope ahead, and is stamped into the ground by a huge military invader, they always say they have nothing left but to die for their belief.
It's a hopeless situation which creates desperate measures.

It's no different to the Japanese Kamikase Pilots, the suicide submarines and boats, who took desperate measures. The Bansai too.
In some cultures suicide is seen as less shameful than defeat or capture.

It's not right by any means, but utter desperation is to blame.
Same as any suicide. There seems no other way out, no other answer, and when the rest of the world is not listening to you, then you give up hope.

I saw a clip of this on the news last night. The producer is trying to get it out and into the Film festivals.




Imagine if that was you or your mother or sister and you had to go through this torture and humiliation whilst the world stands by letting it happen.
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Post by Horus »

I am not convinced by the suicide argument :( The definition of suicide is to take ones own life, the definition of murder is to take someone else's life. To strap a bomb onto your body then kill people indiscriminately will never have a justification in my book. To me it is not done in desperation it is done for vengeance, pure and simple. As I said previously, look at who are the main victims of these suicide bombers, answer, mainly muslims.
It is generally acknowledged that the Egyptian author and poet Sayyid Qutb a prominent member of the Muslim Brotherhood who was executed by the Nasser regime, was the inspiration for most of Al Queda's thinking and doctrines.
Even back then he was writing:
To restore Islam, a vanguard movement of righteous Muslims was needed to establish "true Islamic states", implement Sharia and rid the Muslim world of any non-Muslim influences, such as concepts like socialism or nationalism. Enemies of Islam included "treacherous Orientalists" and "world Jewry", who plotted "conspiracies" and "wickedly" opposed Islam.
So with views like that, I suppose if the Palestinian situation did not exist, they would have to invent another reason to bomb and maim indiscriminately. :|
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I don't buy it either. It's brain washing pure and simple. Throughout history, peoples have been displaced and gone on to better themselves and their surroundings. To sit and wallow in self pity is counterproductive. The Jews themselves have been herded around, run out of countries, locked into ghettos...etc yet they adapted and thrived. America itself is made up of immigrant groups who were displaced from their homelands because of war, persecution, famine, and other hardships. They built this country. Please don't tell me how you CAN'T do something. Tell me how you can.
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Post by jewel »

A new survey gauging Muslim attitudes indicates that backing for suicide bombings against civilians, while generally down from earlier years, remains significant in some Islamic countries – challenging the assertion that Muslims supporting terrorism constitute a “tiny minority.”
In the Pew Global Attitudes Project poll released on Thursday, 68 percent of Palestinian Muslim respondents said suicide bombings against civilians were justifiable “to defend Islam from its enemies.”

That view was shared by 43 percent of respondents in Nigeria and 38 percent in Lebanon, where 51 percent of Shi’ites held the view compared to 25 percent of Sunnis.

Elsewhere, the proportion of Muslim respondents supporting suicide bombings against civilians was 15 percent in Egypt, 13 percent in Indonesia, 12 percent in Jordan, seven percent in Israel (Muslim Arab citizens), five percent in Pakistan and four percent in Turkey.

Of the eight countries polled, support for suicide bombings increased since last year in five of them.


http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/53865

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Post by PRchick »

Now you're quoting the internet cousin of Fox News? Geez. Those people are as bad as the taliban, Jewel.
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Post by Ebikatsu »

PRchick wrote:I don't buy it either. It's brain washing pure and simple. Throughout history, peoples have been displaced and gone on to better themselves and their surroundings. To sit and wallow in self pity is counterproductive. The Jews themselves have been herded around, run out of countries, locked into ghettos...etc yet they adapted and thrived. America itself is made up of immigrant groups who were displaced from their homelands because of war, persecution, famine, and other hardships. They built this country. Please don't tell me how you CAN'T do something. Tell me how you can.
They only adapted and thrived because of billions of American dollars in aid.

You have to ask yourself why have the Jews been herded around and run out of countries throughout the world.
What is the reason for that?
Why it now sits in a region completely surrounded by neighbours who hate it's very existence.
Why it is at war with it's neighbours.
Why it does not recognise International Law.
Why it ignores UN resolutions.

You need to ask yourself why was that. Why since time began they have been hated. All through history.
One thing the Muslims don't understand is why there is such a support from the Christian countries like the USA to support a people who killed the Christians own prophet of God. Who deny their own messiah. They simply don't understand why would a supposedly religious people support the killer of their own prophet Jesus ?

If you take Islam. Even a cartoon raises uproar if it insults their prophet.

So the question is how can it be fixed?
What is the answer to the Middle East problem.
They cannot even get anyone to the table to talk because Israel does not recognise International Laws. It is a land with no defined borders. It's constantly expanding. It's an occupying force.
What other countries would be allowed to do that unchecked?

What if they were given the state of Texas instead of Palestine ?, and still after 60 years their border was not defined, they have taken control and by control I mean build walls, control check points, barb wire fencing not only around Texas and pushed out the Texans, but expanded beyond to take New Mexico, Arizona and California therefore cutting off any crossing into South America and controlling who can pass and who cannot by land.
All the people of those states land and homes were taken, bulldozed. Your orchards and crops bulldozed. Oil wells taken. No fishing in the Gulf of Mexico or you will be shot at by Naval ships on your tiny fishing boat. All of the people of those states forced to live in a 200 mile radius area between Corpus Christi and Brownsville in Concentration camp like conditions as in Gaza, with wire fencing and concrete walls keeping you in. No water except sea water and no electricity unless they allowed it to you. No money, no jobs.

Imagine if it happened in the USA instead of Palestine.
Imagine if the Balfour treaty gave Texas instead as a homeland.
America had plenty of land. Still has. Still taking immigrants, so why not give them all of Texas instead. Would the outcome have been different?
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Post by Horus »

Ebi wrote:
If you take Islam. Even a cartoon raises uproar if it insults their prophet.
And I believe that is the fundamental difference, it is only when people are so convinced of their own beliefs in either their own god or their particular form of religion that the problems arise. To be so obsessed with your own beliefs that it excludes all other debate is just a none starter. As I have said on many occasions, everyone is entitled to believe what they wish, but equally others are entitled to question the basis of that belief. By question, I don't mean to insult or deride anothers religion, but neither should we fear asking the questions.

As for the Jews being hated throughout history, well, I think that persecuted may be a better word to use. These persecutions have many origins, in many countries and if we accept that they have been persecuted then maybe you have answered the question about them wanting a land of their own.

I think that the Palestinian/Israel question is very complicated and there will be many differing views on the subject including who actually killed Jesus. As a person who enjoys history and has no particular religious affiliations I have to say that if indeed he did exist, then it would have been the Romans who were responsible for crucifying him and not the Jewish Sanhedrin.

At that time in history the area known as Judea was a hot bed of revolt and insurrection against Rome, something that people like Pontius Pilate were there to stamp out. Rome ruled with a rod of iron and any troublemaker was dealt with swiftly and severely, Crucifixion was the standard punishment for any subversive or political act. It would have been at the hands of the Roman governor that he was tried and executed after his arrest, the Sanhedrin would have had no say in the matter other than to be glad to have gotten rid of a troublemaker. As they say, history is written by the winners and the biblical accounts that were written at a much later date were done so for a Roman audience, it was not in their interests to depict the Romans as the people who killed Jesus.
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Ebikatsu wrote:
PRchick wrote:I don't buy it either. It's brain washing pure and simple. Throughout history, peoples have been displaced and gone on to better themselves and their surroundings. To sit and wallow in self pity is counterproductive. The Jews themselves have been herded around, run out of countries, locked into ghettos...etc yet they adapted and thrived. America itself is made up of immigrant groups who were displaced from their homelands because of war, persecution, famine, and other hardships. They built this country. Please don't tell me how you CAN'T do something. Tell me how you can.
They only adapted and thrived because of billions of American dollars in aid.

You have to ask yourself why have the Jews been herded around and run out of countries throughout the world.
What is the reason for that?
Why it now sits in a region completely surrounded by neighbours who hate it's very existence.
Why it is at war with it's neighbours.
Why it does not recognise International Law.
Why it ignores UN resolutions.

You need to ask yourself why was that. Why since time began they have been hated. All through history.
One thing the Muslims don't understand is why there is such a support from the Christian countries like the USA to support a people who killed the Christians own prophet of God. Who deny their own messiah. They simply don't understand why would a supposedly religious people support the killer of their own prophet Jesus ?

If you take Islam. Even a cartoon raises uproar if it insults their prophet.

So the question is how can it be fixed?
What is the answer to the Middle East problem.
They cannot even get anyone to the table to talk because Israel does not recognise International Laws. It is a land with no defined borders. It's constantly expanding. It's an occupying force.
What other countries would be allowed to do that unchecked?

What if they were given the state of Texas instead of Palestine ?, and still after 60 years their border was not defined, they have taken control and by control I mean build walls, control check points, barb wire fencing not only around Texas and pushed out the Texans, but expanded beyond to take New Mexico, Arizona and California therefore cutting off any crossing into South America and controlling who can pass and who cannot by land.
All the people of those states land and homes were taken, bulldozed. Your orchards and crops bulldozed. Oil wells taken. No fishing in the Gulf of Mexico or you will be shot at by Naval ships on your tiny fishing boat. All of the people of those states forced to live in a 200 mile radius area between Corpus Christi and Brownsville in Concentration camp like conditions as in Gaza, with wire fencing and concrete walls keeping you in. No water except sea water and no electricity unless they allowed it to you. No money, no jobs.

Imagine if it happened in the USA instead of Palestine.
Imagine if the Balfour treaty gave Texas instead as a homeland.
America had plenty of land. Still has. Still taking immigrants, so why not give them all of Texas instead. Would the outcome have been different?
Really? America has been giving them money for centuries before our country was even established? That's a neat trick. Some sort of time travel I guess. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You completely missed my point. You forget we fought a civil war over here when some states wanted to leave the union. Here's the difference, when it was over, it was over and we all pulled together to build back the union. The Middle East countries have never seemed to cooperate with one another. They've never even gotten along with one another. If they care so much about the palestinians, why don't they take them in to their countries? America has absorbed many displaced immigrant groups EB so you have no right to point a finger at us. After the Viet Namese influx in the 70s, they were housed here in my state for some time. They were integrated into society and have thriving businesses here and all over the country now. We don't give people land EB. We give them the opportunity to work and buy their own.

When we had the big influx of Iranians, they have done exceedingly well here.

The Jews have always been resourceful and helped one another. They are persecuted because others are jealous of their success. Everyone I know who has been to Israel comes back impressed with the people and their resourcefulness. Egypt gets almost as much money from the US as Israel. Where are their impressive accomplishments EB? How is that money helping ordinary Egyptains?

Other Arab countries are swimming in oil and bilking the US with it. Why aren't they using some of that to help the Palestinians? If they used 1/2 of 1% of the billions in oil profits to help the Palestinians, every family could be relocated and started on a path to prosperity. I'm sick of hearing the Arab countries whine and refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Grow up, shut up, and get to work! Stop blaming everyone else for your problems.

As for the rant about Jesus, what is that about? Why would you even bring that up?

Christians don't blame the Jews for crucifying Christ. Even the Catholic Church has given in on that one. For one thing, He's not dead! Second, it was a part of God's plan that was foretold from back in the Old Testament. Christ could have saved Himself at any time but He chose to fulfill the prophecy so all mankind would know that death could not hold Him and God is the ultimate power over life and death. Christ forgave the Roman soldiers who carried out the crucifixion. If He could forgive the people who did that to Him, who are we to do otherwise?

Whereas the Arab countries can't get anyone to the table to talk about the problems because they refuse to talk unless Israel first does everything they want is disbanded. Until they decide to get real, nothing will change.

At lest that's my opinion.
"A man who has had a bull by the tail once has learned 60 or 70 times as much as a man who hasn't."
Mark Twain
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