Two faced or what?

Egypt has both Christian and Moslem communities and the politics of the Middle East are equally diverse. Air your views on the situation.

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Horus
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Two faced or what?

Post by Horus »

Whilst reading a thread on the blue side, a mention was made of Copts being attacked in Egypt because they were praying in an unauthorised place, that place being a house. Now forgive my ignorance on the matter but surely as anyone travelling the world or living in Europe or the UK will have observed, muslims can be seen dropping a prayer mat in any location that they find suitable and carrying out their devotions.

So my question is this: Why is that a suitable practice for a Muslim, but a Christian cannot pray in someones home unless it is authorised? or am I missing something here?


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Post by HEPZIBAH »

[face=Comic Sans MS]Horus, this is a question that I frequently wonder about. I get very frustrated too at times about the total freedom in the UK (sorry I've not put that well and I know given current feelings many will accuse me of not being, at best, politically correct!) for anyone to worship whoever they wish and wherever they wish. My frustration comes mainly because whilst I have no objection to a Muslim or a follower of another faith to worship in the UK, I think the same courtesy should be extended to Christians in other countries.

Public worship and prayer meetings for Christians are forbidden in many countries, or are 'tolerated and monitored' extreemly closely by the authorities as in China, so whilst not fully banned are not really allowed. I recall many years ago taking part in a prayer meeting in Algeria, where we had to meet at a secret location a long way out of town. On that occasion there where around 60 people present, at least 40 which were Algerian nationals. It was not the safest place to be for we Europeans, but it was deadly for those Algerians but they were so happy to be able to meet with other Christians from their own country and around the world that to them it was worth the risk. Certainly a Christian gathering of that number of people had not taken place in that area for very many years, if ever. [/face]
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Post by Horus »

Forget being politically correct Hepzi :? I for one am sick of the having to kow tow to every diverse grouping in the name of political correctness. General acceptance is what we need, I accept your views and you accept mine. If I live in your country I try to obey your laws, please do the same in mine. Assimilation not segregation, tolerance and not ignorance, but it must apply all round. There may be some things that you are not to keen on about my culture, but you must accept that the same will apply to your own culture and practices. If we are tolerant of each other then peace will prevail, it is when one faction decides it will impose its (usually religious) views upon another that the trouble starts.
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It's true

Post by Claire »

Copts are only allowed to worship in authorised churches and to get the permission to build a new Church or even do repairs to an old one takes ages and is often refused. For this reason they sometimes use other buildings temporarily and this is when the problems have started. They can of course pray in their own homes but if they gather in a group this is when problems can start.
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Post by Horus »

Claire wrote:
but if they gather in a group this is when problems can start.
But why should that be? surely that displays an intolerance that they themselves would be complaining much better about if it happened to them in another country :)
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It should n't happen but it does!

Post by Claire »

I was n't saying it was justified, far from it but that's just the situation. Look at some of the other posts further down this page to see some of the other recent incidents.
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Re: It should n't happen but it does!

Post by Horus »

Claire wrote:I was n't saying it was justified, far from it but that's just the situation. Look at some of the other posts further down this page to see some of the other recent incidents.
Oh I did not think that you were Claire :D I was just posing the question of wouldn't it be an intolerant thing to do to the Copts. :)
Are the other posts you refer to on the blue side?
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Post by Ebikatsu »

Yes you are a slow starter Horus.

What you need to do is start up a single race exclusive association, there are plenty out there, ie if you are a white man and Christian then let me suggest.

The White Christian Male Movement for Equality T.W.C.M.E and have it legalized through Parliament and if they reject it as being racist tell them they are not being politically correct and you will take it to Brussels and then your good to go. It'll be perfectly legal to worship in your home.

I think you'll find that soon everyone will be on that bandwagon.

If you can't beat them join them
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Post by Horus »

Sorry Ebi :( but that post went straight over my head :?:
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Post by Ebikatsu »

Horus wrote:Sorry Ebi :( but that post went straight over my head :?:
sorry Horus :mrgreen:

To answer your question.

In the UK moslems will demonstrate and claim racism, and drag you to the nearest Race relations tribunal if you tried to stop any worship wherever they choose to hold it.
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Post by Horus »

Ah yes I see your point now :) sorry, I am being a bit thick today :roll:
I have to say that unfortunately that does seem to happen quite a lot in the UK, any excuse to play the racist card. The down side of course is that eventually people stop beating themselves with the political correctness stick and start to react against it.

This I fear is already starting to show itself in the election of such parties as the BNP, politicians will stick their heads in the sand and say that it is just another protest against the government but they could not be more wrong.

My greatest fear is that the previous level of tolerance shown with regards to immigration and integration in the UK in particular will cease to be so while normally tolerant people feel that they are always having to accommodate others beliefs and customs to what they perceive to be their own detriment.
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Post by Ebikatsu »

Absolutely agree with you there.

People are sick to death of the( and I'm glad you also said) ' racist card' being played.





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Other stories of problems

Post by Claire »

Horus
There are two other threads in this section here by DJ Keefey which talk about some of the problems experienced by Copts. There are also some others on the blue forum.
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Post by Glyphdoctor »

Under emergency law, regardless of your religion, you are not allowed to meet in groups in Egypt. If you want to have a meeting of more than 5 people, technically you are required to get a permit from the government.

Nothing is going to change if these problems keep being cast as problems that apply to Copts only. If the Copts want their rights, they need to start admitting that Muslims have the same problems in Egypt and join forces with them rather than act antagonistic about it. Being divided is no good for anyone.
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Permits for Churches

Post by Claire »

Yes the emergency laws apply to all BUT getting a permit for a new Church or even Church repairs is a nightmare. It is not the same process to build a mosque. Mosques can and do spring up everywhere. No way are the Copts and Muslims treated equally when it comes to places of worship. This is the root of these problems with people praying in buildings not yet authorised. In the incidents mentioned it was the local population who started to complain about the Copts praying not the security police.
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Post by Horus »

Under emergency law, regardless of your religion, you are not allowed to meet in groups in Egypt. If you want to have a meeting of more than 5 people, technically you are required to get a permit from the government.
Five?..........you mean Five as in 1 + 4 ?, that is not even a family sitting down for lunch together, how ridiculous!
Looks like we will have to be more careful with our L4U meetings in future :lol:
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Post by BBLUX »

I was thinking the same thing Horus :)
We were really living dangerously with 18 people at my birthday party at an open air restaurant.
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Re: Permits for Churches

Post by Glyphdoctor »

Claire wrote: No way are the Copts and Muslims treated equally when it comes to places of worship.
Doesn't the Coptic Church have the right to choose its own clergy though? The government took over all the mosques and put imams of their choosing in place. The issues facing the Copts are different but the fact is that the government plays a dominant role in determining how one can worship in this country regardless of the religion of the worshipper. What about the Shia in Egypt?
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Up to a point!

Post by Claire »

Yes the Copts can choose their own clergy altho there was a nasty incident some years back when the current Head of the Coptic Church was ordered by the goverment to stay in his monastery and the government tried but failed to put another Bishop in his place! The government do keep a close eye on the clergy though and outspoken ones are soon told to keep quiet!!! Yes the 'emergency' rules apply to all in one way or another!
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