Sacred Lake Theory

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BillH
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Sacred Lake Theory

Post by BillH »

I was at Karnak temple on Monday, and while enjoying the new found freedom of the place, where many barriers are removed, I saw locals fishing in the lake.

I took a wander down the steps to the lake by where the souvenir shop used to be and saw all sizes of the Nile fish in there and and wondered to myself,

"Is it possible that there is a link to the River Nile" ?

The cogs started to turn in my head, thinking that if fish were in there, then they can't all be from one small genetic pool, and that lake can only sustain so many fish at any given time.

After all, if there are fish then there is the possibility that maybe the rumors are true of a tunnel under the Nile. Probably long since collapsed now, but maybe fish could get through... ?

If the scousers can build a tunnel under the Mersey, then why not the Ancients, after all, it did seem to be a major hobby of theirs did it not ?


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Post by Horus »

That holiday soon went by Bill, anyway nice to see you back.
Regarding the sacred lake, don’t forget that the Nile in the form of a canal came right up to the present day main entrance at Karnak temple. Most people happily pass over the little bridge on their way in without realising that this was once a harbour frontage. :)
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Post by BillH »

Thank You Horus, I was looking at that as well on my way out, seems they have been doing more digging in that canal recently too, it is much deeper than I remember it.

But I do know that river fish cannot survive for long in still water.

Its quite odd to see the Nile fish in the lake..Breeding too.. Hmmm.
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Post by LovelyLadyLux »

Curiouser and curiouser. I quite agree that only so many fish for so long could make in an enclosed lake. Somewhere, somehow I'm thinking there is outside 'genetics' mixing with the local fish! ;)
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Post by BillH »

Thanks LLL.

I will ponder that statement for a while.
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Post by Horus »

Darwin's Galapagos finches proved that any species evolving in isolation can easily mutate to suit its current environment. There are several good fish examples to choose from, the Arctic char in Loch Ness is a good example, a true survivor from the last ice age. Blind cave fish from Mexico are from the Tetra family of fish and evolved to live in caves, this phenomenon has happened in several places around the world. Maybe the best example are the Cichlids that inhabit Lakes Tanganyika, Malawi, Victoria and Edward in central Africa, they belong to the Tilapia family, but have evolved into numerous sub species after being confined to these lakes. One only has to look at the great variation in the Cichlids that are available to buy for home aquariums in order to see that diversity and they all come from these few African lakes.
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Post by LovelyLadyLux »

Have a friend who is a molecular biologist who, for a while as well as off and on looks at evolution. What they do know is that once an organism is stressed it forever more changes the DNA of that organism AND once the stress is over and done with the DNA never reverts back. Thus if you have an entire population of an organism that all goes through a major stress (i.e. extreme cold in a winter, lack of food or a specific food etc.) then all DNA starts to change. As this stress continues over time the DNA mutates more and more which also brings about change that once started doesn't revert back. This explains why some varieties of a species might be a different colour or develop subtle changes which then continue down a new path.

Makes sense to me at this level so I've always made the assumption that isolated populations will go through changes over time based upon the natural stresses in the environment that occur.
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Post by BillH »

Makes sense I guess..

If Brown bears can become Polar Bears then why not fish adapting their respiritory system to cope with lower oxygen llevels ??

I still think that there is a tunnel under the Nile though. After all I am sure that the Ancients could have pulled that one off with some ease.. relatively speaking... 8)
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Post by Horus »

I have never understood the reason for them wanting a tunnel in the first place, :roll: they were very much into boats of all kinds including ones for religious festivals, so why bother with a tunnel? and why build a harbour at Karnak temple?
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Post by BillH »

...And a harbour at Luxor temple too..
Check out about 100 yards down the Corniche from temple street..

Well a tunnel would be handy for general too'ing and fro'ing, and also moving large numbers of people. Save waiting for the boat, specially late at night.
That passenger ferry in Luxor can be a pain in the neck in the early hours even today, as I have often said to Alison while we wait to cross.

"If I were bloody Jesus I could have walked across the Nile faster" :lol:
I doubt that was an original statement...
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Post by crazycat »

I agree with Bill, there must be a tunnel. When I was at Abydos a couple of years ago I was walking down the steps to the Osireion and was looking at the water there when a massive fish poked its head through the water. I asked one of the guardians there about it and he said there was a link to the river so I guess its possible at Karnak too.
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Post by Horus »

This is an interesting subject and I want us to explore it a bit more if we can, but let us just clarify what we are all saying here. For my part I am sure that at one time there would have been some connection to the harbour area at Karnak so as to replenish the sacred lake with water, although most people believe that the lake in the nearby Temple of Mut area is actually fed by an underground spring.

The main part of Bills theory that I disagree with was of a tunnel under the Nile whose existence I would doubt very much, but the sacred lake itself must obviously have either had a spring to feed it or a conduit of some kind back to the harbour area, so to me that is not in dispute. I would doubt that today any such working feeder tunnel still exists although some seepage must still happen from the surrounding sub-soil and as we know the water table is quite high in this area. So I contend that any fish in the lake are either indigenous or are introduced by other means and that there was no past or present culvert/tunnel that ever went past the old harbour area located at the present entrance pylon.

But as food for thought take a look at these pictures, the first shows how the entrance slopes down towards the temple floor level as you enter Karnak. The security check can be seen on the bridge above the slope as you look back to where you entered.

2180

Now look at these pictures taken below the security and entrance bridge that show what is obviously a harbour. The water level here would be just below the floor level of Karnak temple, so a culvert from here could easily top up the level of the Sacred Lake.

2181

Although probably of a later period, this culvert could well be the one in question. Note how it is running towards the lake, just below floor level.

2182

It is also worth noting that water always finds its own level, it is a law of physics, so if you have a container such as the Sacred Lake it can be filled in three ways.

One way would be if the stone walls of the lake are porous, it can be filled by seepage from the surrounding soil, this would depend upon the level of the water table which we know to be quite high in modern times. In antiquity the Nile would rise and fall a considerable distance and this would have great impact upon the water table at different times of the year. Lots of temples actually flooded during this inundation and it was an intentional thing representing rebirth, so if that were the case the lake could be replenished each year from the flooding and subsequent seepage. The present level falls throughout the year due to evaporation and this can be clearly seen in these pictures taken over several years and at various times of the year.

Here the water is quite high
2183

Here it is quite low
2184

The other things that support seepage from the water table is that water can still be seen quite close to the surface and at levels that equal today’s lake level.

This shows ground water seeping into the harbour excavations.
2185

Alongside of the Sacred Lake and near to the café area can be seen this sloping stone structure, visible on the right of the photo. (sorry it’s a poor photograph, but its the best one I have to show the feature)
2186

If like me you are a nosey old git, you will nip over the rope and have a look inside and this is what you will see, it is the water table at the same level as the Sacred Lake.
2187

Further along the water table can be seen again.
2188

The second way would be to make the walls watertight and fill the lake via a culvert of some kind running in near the top edge. In this scenario the lake could only be filled when the water in the harbour was high enough to overspill into the culvert as the level of the Nile rose with the inundation. This culvert would stay flooded for several months so fish could easily move along it and into the lake, as the Nile water receded, the fish would become trapped in the lake as the culvert would now be above the harbour water level.

The third option of a tunnel from the Nile is hardly practical as (a) the Nile is already outside the temple via a canal. (b) Any tunnel would have to feed into the bottom of the lake in order to fill it and as such the tunnel would not only fill up the lake, but it would empty it as the Nile water levels dropped. Again, remember that two connected bodies of water must always find an equal level regardless of the distance they are apart, so to me the tunnel idea is a non starter.

But it is still an interesting topic for discussion. :)
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Post by Glyphdoctor »

Ground water in the area flows from the fields to the east toward the Nile rather than the other way. The salinity of the lake is much higher than the Nile as well.
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Post by BillH »

Glyphdoctor wrote:Ground water in the area flows from the fields to the east toward the Nile rather than the other way. The salinity of the lake is much higher than the Nile as well.
Now, due to the rotation of the earth, I would have said it should have gone to the West !

Interesting about the salinity of the water, but then, With North Africa being a sea bed for some 40 million years, it's hardly surprising.

I really and truly believe that the Ancients had technology beyond modern man's understanding, or that has been lost either accidently or by design..

I'm going to have a close look on Google Earth, North Africa has some interesting features..
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Post by Horus »

An interesting point that Glyph makes about the lakes salinity, :) if nothing else it would confirm that no present day link exists between the lake and the Nile via any such tunnel. The Nile itself is fresh water whereas groundwater is often slightly saline due to it passing through salt crystals or salt strata in the aquifer containing the water where it picks up some salinity.

Even if this salinity is very slight, as the evaporation takes place the waters salinity will increase as it becomes more concentrated within the lake. This phenomenon can be seen in the highly irrigated regions of the USA where water is pumped from underground aquifers. As it gets absorbed into the soil the salt is being deposited on the surface and because there is insufficient annual rainfall to wash it away naturally this deposit continues to accrue within the top soil layer.

If the sacred lake was indeed fed by the Nile you would expect the salinity to be very similar to the river. Further proof that no such tunnel exist today is the fact that the lake has to be topped up at intervals as the water evaporates, you can see this taking place in this photograph.

Several of these filling pipes are located around the lake to top up the water level.
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Post by LovelyLadyLux »

Interesting theories! I've never before thought about which way the water would actually flow either.

I'm also in accord with BillH in that I believe the ancients had highly advanced knowledge in areas that we have since lost.
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Re: Sacred Lake Theory

Post by drwho »

My knowledge of all things ancient is little, but I do remember 2O years ago two German divers tried to navigate the pharaonic tunnel under the Nile from Luxor temple to the West Bank and were never heard of again and the authorities stopped all knowledge and references to the existence of said tunnel, I used to be a salvage diver once, hence the interest......:cool:
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Re: Sacred Lake Theory

Post by Horus »

That doesn't surprise me doctor, youve been everything else ;)
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Re: Sacred Lake Theory

Post by A-four »

Now lets hold this right there, if you nip up to Abydos, you may notice in the 'lake' which is not a lake, and l know most of us are aware that it is the tomb of Osirus, that as a result of the present rise of the water table, l very often see rather large cat fish there.The Nile believe me is some distance from here now, l would say 20 mins in your average taxi.
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Re: Sacred Lake Theory

Post by Horus »

So? I have had Roach in a rain barell miles from any lake.
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