Egyptian Pharoes outside of Egypt....

[BillH]

Here's a question for all the folks with an interest in Egyptology.

We seem to know all about the Pharaohs and way of life of the Egyptians ( apparently )

So the question is, does anyone know of any documented sighting of an Egyptian Pharaoh outside of his / her kingdom of Egypt. ?

I know Cleopatra came close to being taken to Rome, but never actually got there, after deciding suicide was a better option..

Mind you, I see where the old girl was coming from, having been there for this court case more times than I care to remember...

[Horus]

I know Cleopatra came close to being taken to Rome, but never actually got there, after deciding suicide was a better option..

Bill, Cleopatra actually lived in Rome from 45 B.C. until Caesar was assassinated a year later, Oops!

So the question is, does anyone know of any documented sighting of an Egyptian Pharaoh outside of his / her kingdom of Egypt. ?

Now this is a bit of a rhetorical question, because how many rulers of any empire would actually go outside of their own domain or sphere of influence? Hitler for example would not have come to Britain, whereas he would go to say Poland or France because it was within his control. The same applies to many Egyptian pharaohs who also travelled within their empire, for example Ramesses the Great who would lead his armies almost as far as modern day Turkey, in order to confront the Hittites, because he considered the lands as far as the city of Kadesh in the Levant area of the Middle East and now called Syria, to be within his own sphere of influence, so yes, they did travel outside of Egypt.

[BillH]

Interesting fact about Cleopatra that I was unaware off, still, Mark Anthony did throw a spanner in the works there, didn't he ?
I beg to differ on the rulers not leaving the Empire, Caeser was of course in Egypt, and many of the other countries that Rome conquered. Britain was visited by the various vitctors over the centuries.
You would think that Like Caesar, regulalr visits by the ultimate ruler to the occupied lands were essential for occupying forces morale.

So, did the Hittites record anything of the Ancient Egyptians Horus ? because this is what I am trying to find out.

You cant trust anything the Romans or Ancient Greeks have documented, after all, they gave us Christianity via the Council of Nicea, and the modern day control that we have through Government on the basis of Christianity and or Catholosism.

It seems to me that ( and this is what I am trying to find out ) The Egyptians tell us of what they did, but I dont find anywhere, records from these battles or conquests by the occupied country or opposing forces to say "yes, this is what happened in our lands".

I like to question History, and that involves getting both sides of the story.
I would have expected that given the achievents of the Ancient Egyptians for them to have taken the reverse path of the Romans and Greeks and come into Europe and kicked some backside there, rather than waiting for an invading forces from Europe to eventually overthrow them.
Did the Romans and Greeks beat the Egyptians ? was there even an Egyptian Empire to defeat ?? or were the Ancient Egyptians ( as we know them) just a figment of the imagination born from occupation of the land and the discoveries the occupiers made ??

[Horus]

I beg to differ on the rulers not leaving the Empire, Caeser was of course in Egypt, and many of the other countries that Rome conquered. Britain was visited by the various vitctors over the centuries.

Isn't that what I said when I referred to Ramesses fighting in Kadesh?

So, did the Hittites record anything of the Ancient Egyptians Horus ? because this is what I am trying to find out.

They recorded many things about the Egyptians, in fact most of what is known about Tutankhamun's wifes attempts to marry a Hittite Prince comes from the many clay tablets found at Hatusha the capital city of the Hittite empire, as does a copy of a peace treaty made between themselves and the Egyptians after the battle of Kadesh. The same battle fought by Ramesses II and depicted on many temple walls as an outright victory for him, whereas the tablets recveal it to have been a stalemate with no real victor.

[BillH]

In effect, the Hittites bring us back to the Ancient Greeks though, geographically and with the same religious origins from Sumaraia.

All roads regarding Ancient Egypt lead to either Rome or Greece.


It always seemed odd that the Egyptians never seemed to have made a left turn when they got to the shores of the Mediterranean. Modern day Libya was within their empire, and I cannot help feel that ALL we know about the Ancient Egyptian empire comes from just 2 sources, who actually worked together in later years.
The Greeks certainly learned much from Sumaria, and copied much of what they saw, then the Romans seem to have copied the Ancient Greeks in many things, such as the buildings and architecture, the images of gods and even down to soldiers in red tunics, like the Spartans.

The final problem about these alleged battles that took place between the Egyptians and the Hittites is the desert. A hostile environment, difficult to travel through even today, and even if you followed the coast, its still ALL sun and Sand. But with full battle gear and chariots.. ??

[Horus]

In effect, the Hittites bring us back to the Ancient Greeks though, geographically and with the same religious origins from Sumaraia.

Not so Bill, they are as different as chalk and cheese, the Greeks were a European nation (eventually) whereas the Hittites were from the region of present day Turkey. Remember your Greek mythology Bill, Helen of Sparta, a Greek state, legs it off with Paris the son of king Priam a Trojan and ruler of Troy. They are hotly pursued by the husband Menelaus and his brother Agamemnon, according to the story, on their return they are becalmed on the island of Pharos near Egypt, so by my reckoning a long way from Sparta.

The actual archaeological site of Hisarlik in the Anatolian province of modern day Turkey is now credited as being the city of Troy. Troy by the way is the Greek translation of the name ‘Wiluse’ which was a Hittite city. Therefore there is no correlation between the Greeks and the Hittites other than them being enemies according to Homer.

Years later they clashed for real on several occasions, the most memorable being an alliance of Greek city states and led by the Spartan king Leonidas against the invading army of Xerxes king of the Persian empire which included modern day Turkey within it’s empire.

As to your references to all of that area being dessert? You may as well say that they could not travel anywhere else in Egypt because it was all sand! You of all people having travelled in these parts of the world surely know the difference in a dessert of sand and a normal dessert region that is just bare rocky ground. It would have been no problem for the Egyptians to move chariots over such ground, in fact they were so lightweight they could be easily disassembled and carried if necessary, unlike the heavy Hittite chariots. So unless the Hittites were also telling porkies about the battle of Kadesh, then it really happened.

The whole of the area from Sinai up to the modern day Turkish border was known as The Levant and contain more ancient cities and civilisations than I could start to name here, so hardly a dessert of sand.

[BillH]

There have been discoveries out there that baffle the Archeologists, and in the mediterranean. Did you know that there have been discovered over 200 towns and villages under the Med' ??

We still live in the Dark ages as far as History is concerned, and indeed as humans are concerned..

I believe that very soon there is something that is going to come out of Egypt that will shock the entire world, and it will come from a credible source.
Then everyone will understand just how misunderstood Egyptology really is.
Symbology replaces the written word.. It had to.. languages die out over time, but symbology has constants.

[Horus]

Nothing unusual in finding archaeological remains under the Mediterranean Bill, the Med has dried out and refilled at least ten times over the millenniums so it would be surprising if they didn’t find traces of human habitation, especially in the more coastal areas. The Mediterranean is not the only sea to have fluctuated in size, our own North Sea was once the home of vast herds of Mammoths that roamed the area of today’s Dogger Bank and no doubt pursued by ancient hunters, trawlers still dredge up Mammoth tusks and over the years these run into many thousands. The current size of the Black Sea is a result of rising water levels in the Med as it broke through the ridge that separated the two seas in the region of the Bosporus near Istanbul in Turkey.

There is a similar ridge that separates the Mediterranean from the Atlantic Ocean, once the sea levels fall in Atlantic all the rivers that flow into the Med from Europe are insufficient to maintain the water level and evaporation takes over and the sea shrinks down to almost dessert conditions, this process has happened many times. Once the Atlantic levels rise again they spill over the ridge between Gibraltar and north Africa and refill the Mediterranean basin once more. This does not happen overnight and may take hundreds of years, the same thing happens with the Black Sea being refilled via the Med. No doubt that this ever rising sea level, possible visible on a daily basis to the inhabitants of the areas involved gave rise to the Biblical Flood story as the waters seemed to continue to rise with no apparent explanation. Another piece of evidence is that the Black Sea is less salty than most seas or oceans with a definite separation of salt water at the bottom and a mixture of fresh and salt water nearer the top half. This is because it was once a large fresh water lake that was flooded with salt water from the rising Mediterranean which increased it’s size dramatically, hence the potential for a flood myth handed down to later generations.

Symbology replaces the written word.. It had to.. languages die out over time, but symbology has constants.

A bit of a confusing statement Bill, I assume that you mean that the Heiroglyphs are somehow different to any other form of communication? All written language is a form of symbology as you put it, rather than draw a symbol modern languages are reduced to the basic strokes required to represent the meaning of that symbol, but all can be traced to more complex symbols in the past. In the case of Egyptian hieroglyphs, they were simply the long hand version used in religious buildings. All of the symbols have shortened versions that were used in every day records. There is nothing mysterious or hidden in the symbols, they represent exactly what they are meant to represent, give or take a few small variations and these differences are usually about the correct grammar and usage rather than the actual meaning of the symbol.

Lots of cultures used symbolised or stylised written languages, the Aztecs, the Mayans to name but two, both used pictographs that for many years were a mystery as they were so strange to look at. Eventually these symbols are interpreted and their meaning becomes clear, they could also convey the written word in a series of knots on strings called ‘Quipu’ Now that would be a real mystery if it were not for Spanish priests who learned to read these having been taught by the natives. They also wrote books called ‘Codex’ which again were hard to interpret, especially as the Spaniards destroyed most of them, but the few remaining were interpreted.

What about modern written languages used today by the Japanese and Chinese, I am sure that most Western people have little or no comprehension as to what they actually represent and no doubt that to most Chinese they are just a representation of a particular item or concept and they too have lost the ability to see the actual brush strokes for what they originally represented. So a very detailed picture that once was drawn as a small house with Bamboo stalks around it becomes stylised into a series of brush strokes that bears no obvious resemblance to the original sketch, but it still has the meaning of “Log Cabin” or something similar, so in the Chinese mind they no longer need to see the complete drawing as those brush strokes convey the original meaning to them.

No doubt most English speakers would struggle with the concept of the name of the little Welsh village of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch having the literal meaning of:

“St Mary's Church in the hollow of the white hazel near the rapid whirlpool and the church of St Tysilio with a red cave” (as a rough translation) but it demonstrates my point.

[BillH]

Agreed with your first statement there Horus, of course mankind were supposed to have been nomadic back then, so I am not too sure about settlements ?

The Med' basin prior to holding sea water, must have received the contents of the Nile of course. I would loved to have seen that
Could the basin have been a huge fresh water lake, or a massive swamp ?

If one were to believe the Bible, then man wasn't even around back then.
I am wondering just how much of our history is distorted through the rule of religion ?
If you add up the ages of Adam and his descendants, then man has only been around for 6500 years or so.. give or take..

It must have been a very, very long time ago, that the Gibraltar straits opened up, and assuming the sea levels were high enough, then the med' was created.
Of course the odd ice age here and there must have played it's part on the sea levels, but humans don't do too well in the tundra.


I guess that If we today knew that our world was coming to an end, we too would have to use symbology to tell any future civilisations about our lives here on earth.
despite the vast wealth of media we have, none of that could be left behind, as we would have to assume that there would be a vast span of time before anyone or anything intelligent found it, so the media would have eroded away or become useless. Gold of course is inert. Stone carvings would last a long time, so there is 2 forms of media we could use to convey our message.

for example, we couldn't draw a picture of an aeroplane, as anyone seeing it wouldn't know what it was. we would somehow have to leave a symbol for them to decipher the fact that our civilization could fly from place to place.

I will leave you to ponder that last statement...

I'm glad you know about that famous village in Anglesey, I visit that island often. We call the Village "Llanfair PG" its so much simpler.
It has certainly changed through the years, and barely recognisable from how I remember it as a kid..
Oh, and some Arabic words are also found in the Welsh language..

I have a picture of a huge stone that was allegedly a cap of a burial site on the Island, I will post it when I get home.. There is a feature of that stone, that immediately made me think of the unfinished obelisk in Aswan.

Oddly enough, there is stone-age copper mine in Llandudno which is a short distance from Anglesey, and copper from that mine was found in Ancient Egypt. The logical explanation would be that this copper must have traded down some trade route to Africa. The stone however ???

I would certainly recommend anyone visit Anglesey ( Ynys Mon ).
I can give you some great tips for some very interesting places to visit.
You don't have to travel thousands of miles for archaeological treasures.
But then, that depends on what one defines as treasures, shiny things or the bringer of knowledge..

Oh, I forgot about the Mammoth tusks ! back in 1962, they found one about 500 yards from my house down by the river..
http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/leisu ... /parklife/
second paragraph..

[BillH]

Here's what I am talking about regarding the "Tomb" and the Obelisk at Aswan.



Here's the Capstone from the Outside.



And a shot from the Inside.




It appears to me, that these 2 stones have been cut using a similar method. Although the Obelisk has it's sides shaped, the indentations of the initial cut ( the Scoop shapes ) show that a similar method was used.
The capstone has been cut and lifted out of the ground, but not then cut to shape.




This 25 TON capstone was allegedly dragged around the Island by people and ropes ? Assuming 500 people sharing the load, ( not the some 27 people or so in the picture ) Thus equates to 50KG per person. ( I still think that more manpower would have been required due to the ground resistance, and I found no evidence of straight line scratch marks indicating it had been dragged about )..

That is way too much effort for a burial stone, easier for Mohammed to come to the mountain, I would have said ???

Trading copper, and maybe trading skills ? Could the Egyptians taught these ancient Welsh people how to quarry and move large stones ?

Or did ALL the Ancient cultures have some form of knowledge that they could have been born with ??

Interesting stone.


It also raises another question for me..

We generally have to dig quite deep to find Ancient Roman sites, as I have witnessed in many countries in Europe, yet this "burial chamber" pre-dates the Roman's in Britain by about 3,000 years, but was actually still visible, so only 4 - 5 feet underground from its base.
Presumably that area of the field could not be ploughed due to the presence of this huge stone.


It took them another 130 years to get into Wales though.


Now, THIS stone at Plas Newydd house on Anglesey also has it's own little curiosity in its garden. It was never unearthed later, as we can tell by the lawns. A nice Garden feature perhaps ?

[BillH]

I also forgot to mention that..

In the Quarry at Aswan, there is something FAR more interesting than the Obelisk, Higher up the quarry...

[Horus]

There are many interesting things in the quarry Bill which one did you have in mind?

[BillH]

There are many interesting things in the quarry Bill which one did you have in mind?

If you go past the Obelisk, then make a right turn, it's quite steep, then wander up to the top so the Obelisk below you, and you can see the paintings of the Flamingo an Hippopotamus at about the 2 o clock position, there is a perfect square in the ground, about 3 feet per side. It has a metal grid over it.
I threw a pebble down the hole and it took about 4 seconds to hit the ground. That gives some idea of depth, BUT how would one extract the length of granite that the hole once occupied ?? A verical lift the full height of the stone to clear the ground...
Now, if you wanted an oblong lenght of stone out of a quarry, then that really is a case of "How difficult can we make this exercise" !!

I doubt the old Diorite stone theory works too well in these circumstances regarding the tools used to cut out the stone.

I am quite surprised that it hasn't been mentioned at all.
But then all eyes are on the Obelisk..

I also noticed that the Nile was not even visible from high up there, and if one were to extract the Obelisk, you still have a steep incline to get it over.

I also find it hard to believe that they discovered the crack and kept on working.
I think it would have been obvious very early on, and that a lot of effort would have been wasted on exposing the full extent of the crack. It's hardly a hairline fracture...