France bans the Burqa
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- Horus
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France bans the Burqa
The French have taken the following action regarding the wearing of Burqas, what do you all think, good or bad?
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090622/tp ... 150e0.html
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090622/tp ... 150e0.html
I think a woman should be allowed to wear what she wants as long as it doesn't violate any modesty laws. Having said that, I don't think women should be forced to wear a burqa.
I tell my girls how girls were not allowed to wear pants to school or church until I was a senior in high school. Nor were girls allowed to participate in sports in our town. Nowadays, such gender specific regulations are an affront to personal freedom and self expresson but when I was a girl it was the rule.
When I started University, some schools (not mine) did not allow women to wear shorts on campus or hair rollers outside their dorms. At all schools, however, women were requrired to be back in their dorms by 10 p.m. on weekdays, midnight on weekends. That ended after my first year.
On the other hand, one of my nieces married into a family and joined their church demonination that requires women to wear long skirts, cover their arms and not cut their hair. That's her choice and I'll defend her right to make it, even if I don't want to do it myself.
Here in the states, there are some places, such as banks, where people are not allowed to enter if their face is covered, such as by a ski mask in winter. But that is a security thing.
So unless it's a security thing or they can prove a woman is being forced to wear a barqa in France, I think government should butt out of women's fashions. And same with any government forcing women to wear bargqs.
I tell my girls how girls were not allowed to wear pants to school or church until I was a senior in high school. Nor were girls allowed to participate in sports in our town. Nowadays, such gender specific regulations are an affront to personal freedom and self expresson but when I was a girl it was the rule.
When I started University, some schools (not mine) did not allow women to wear shorts on campus or hair rollers outside their dorms. At all schools, however, women were requrired to be back in their dorms by 10 p.m. on weekdays, midnight on weekends. That ended after my first year.
On the other hand, one of my nieces married into a family and joined their church demonination that requires women to wear long skirts, cover their arms and not cut their hair. That's her choice and I'll defend her right to make it, even if I don't want to do it myself.
Here in the states, there are some places, such as banks, where people are not allowed to enter if their face is covered, such as by a ski mask in winter. But that is a security thing.
So unless it's a security thing or they can prove a woman is being forced to wear a barqa in France, I think government should butt out of women's fashions. And same with any government forcing women to wear bargqs.
Last edited by PRchick on Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Horus
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In the interest of clarity for UK readers, I assume that your reference to not wearing 'pants' is what we would call trousers? as in the UK pants may generally mean knickers, so you can imagine that it does put a different slant on things sorry, I am not being frivolous it is just the way it may read differently by someone in the UK.
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I was on a tram in Alex yesterday with hubby.
This is what I was wearing.
Capri trousers, socks and trainers.
A kaftan with long sleeves a bit like this but the slit at the neck was only about a 1/3rd the one in the picture, and length to just above my knees, with long sleeves. I like to be covered in the strong sunlight.
An Adidas blue baseballcap with hair tied in ponytail coming out gap at back of baseball cap. Pair of Lennon dark sunglasses.
First off I sat beside him and a young guy was giving me the eye, so I switched seats with hubby so he could not see me and ended up facing 2 burkhas and what I assume was the hubby in a arabic thobe with white cotton skull cap.
They were opposite but oblique to me.
The 3 of them were staring at me. From behind my glasses I saw as they stared absolutely bold faced into my face. I ignored it for about a minute but they kept staring, so I gestured with my hands' what?. They kept staring!!!
I then said what are you all staring at for Gods sake?
They carried on staring and laughing then by now at the foreigner who was now challenging them!! The way they do when they act all innocent and you are the one who is mad and ignorant.
Hubby suddenly became aware and said lets move. The 3 carried on staring, and I was by now cursing at them.
So he got up and I followed him past them, and as I passed one of them I went 'as if' to grab her burkha at her face, and raised my hand as if I was pulling it off her face and throwing it on the ground with my face up to hers.
Of course I didn't do it but if I had been there another few seconds I would have ripped it off her stupid ignorant face and rammed it down their ' oh so modest ' throats!
I was sitting perfectly conservatively minding my own business but I swear the next one who gives me 'that sideways glance' is going to find her face 'on show to the street'.
I'm sick to death of their utter retarded ignorance! and that's why I say well done Sarkozy! Good on ya!
http://www.cherange.com/ssp_director/al ... kaftan.jpg
This is what I was wearing.
Capri trousers, socks and trainers.
A kaftan with long sleeves a bit like this but the slit at the neck was only about a 1/3rd the one in the picture, and length to just above my knees, with long sleeves. I like to be covered in the strong sunlight.
An Adidas blue baseballcap with hair tied in ponytail coming out gap at back of baseball cap. Pair of Lennon dark sunglasses.
First off I sat beside him and a young guy was giving me the eye, so I switched seats with hubby so he could not see me and ended up facing 2 burkhas and what I assume was the hubby in a arabic thobe with white cotton skull cap.
They were opposite but oblique to me.
The 3 of them were staring at me. From behind my glasses I saw as they stared absolutely bold faced into my face. I ignored it for about a minute but they kept staring, so I gestured with my hands' what?. They kept staring!!!
I then said what are you all staring at for Gods sake?
They carried on staring and laughing then by now at the foreigner who was now challenging them!! The way they do when they act all innocent and you are the one who is mad and ignorant.
Hubby suddenly became aware and said lets move. The 3 carried on staring, and I was by now cursing at them.
So he got up and I followed him past them, and as I passed one of them I went 'as if' to grab her burkha at her face, and raised my hand as if I was pulling it off her face and throwing it on the ground with my face up to hers.
Of course I didn't do it but if I had been there another few seconds I would have ripped it off her stupid ignorant face and rammed it down their ' oh so modest ' throats!
I was sitting perfectly conservatively minding my own business but I swear the next one who gives me 'that sideways glance' is going to find her face 'on show to the street'.
I'm sick to death of their utter retarded ignorance! and that's why I say well done Sarkozy! Good on ya!
http://www.cherange.com/ssp_director/al ... kaftan.jpg
- Horus
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It's in my view just total ignorance.
Seemingly from what I heard from one who wears it , it is her and their understanding that they are more respectable and respected by God.
She said that God had more respect for her because she was more modest and we were being offensive to God by not covering our faces from view .
Seriously!! that was what she said!
Well you can imagine I made a quick exit from there, also after she said Saudi was the ideal place to live for respectable women!!
Vegetables!!!
Seemingly from what I heard from one who wears it , it is her and their understanding that they are more respectable and respected by God.
She said that God had more respect for her because she was more modest and we were being offensive to God by not covering our faces from view .
Seriously!! that was what she said!
Well you can imagine I made a quick exit from there, also after she said Saudi was the ideal place to live for respectable women!!
Vegetables!!!
- Horus
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So arguably, if God created man in his own image, then you are hiding the image of God from God? Why would he (God) think that you were more respectful of him by hiding yourself from him? the whole logic of this goes over my head. It is nothing more than a backward, man made rule used by males to subjugate and dominate their women, it has no place in a modern world. The old argument that it is their own decision to wear them does not hold water, they have been raised in that belief from children and never given the option of choice, one has only to look at the most repressive regimes in the world regarding women's rights and look at how they are dressed.
oh after yesterday I will believe me.redsaffy wrote:I have to say if it was me Ebikatsu I would have done just that and taken her face cover off!!
One woman said to me her daughter was so beutiful that she had to ware it for her own protection!!!
She looked about 25 stone with penguin feet!!! so not convinced!!
I agree Horus.Horus wrote:So arguably, if God created man in his own image, then you are hiding the image of God from God? Why would he (God) think that you were more respectful of him by hiding yourself from him? the whole logic of this goes over my head. It is nothing more than a backward, man made rule used by males to subjugate and dominate their women, it has no place in a modern world. The old argument that it is their own decision to wear them does not hold water, they have been raised in that belief from children and never given the option of choice, one has only to look at the most repressive regimes in the world regarding women's rights and look at how they are dressed.
Totally lacking in any opinion of their own making, although it is a useful disguise.
One man was caught on the Cairo Metro dressed in one and sitting in the ladies car, and was later found out he was going to meet his 'lover', because the women saw the size of his feet on the train and questioned it!
Lots of them here use it for disguise. Prostitutes use it to get into hotels with the men.
I watched one put hair products up hers and walked out a shop. Another in niqab got her 7-8 year old son to put a big pot of Nivea up his jumper and they both walked out Carrefour.
It needs to be banned and if they want to wear it go live in Saudi.
- Glyphdoctor
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There are women I've known who chose to wear it, even though their husband's weren't necessarily happy about it. But you do see a lot with a husband in tow with the full beard and short pants and those you do have to wonder whose choice it is. But I would not say they have been raised from a young age to do it in Egypt. When anyone over the age of 18 was young here in Egypt, almost no women wore them at all. You could go all over Cairo all day and see at most 1-2 women wearing it. Now you see one at least on every corner.
It's quite common for women on the metro in Cairo to make remarks about foreigners or Egyptian women with dyed blonde hair or too much makeup. I always give them dirty looks when I overhear them doing this. The last time I saw it happen there was a French woman with her daughter who must have been 10 years old and they were having a discussion about the girl's appearance. And for all we know, the woman and her daughter could have been fluent in Arabic and known what they were saying. It was so rude.
But then you also have the women who get on the train and shout the du'a al-rukab and expect everyone to join them in it or act really offended. They do it to bother the Christians I think some of the time.
Then there was an ad I saw plastered in the women's car for hair lengthening products, and the ad said it was for hijabis only! So they only would do business with someone they knew wasn't going to show her longer hair to someone other than her husband?
I remember being in some online group where there were some women discussing some picnic they had attended in a park that was across the street from some apartment buildings. One woman was complaining that it was a bad location for a picnic because someone on the 5th floor of one of the nearby buildings might have seen her face when she lifted her niqab to eat something! That was just too much for me. I think I quit the group after that. Just did not want to deal with people who think it is more important to cover their faces than engage in activities that are necessary for survival like eating and drinking.
It's quite common for women on the metro in Cairo to make remarks about foreigners or Egyptian women with dyed blonde hair or too much makeup. I always give them dirty looks when I overhear them doing this. The last time I saw it happen there was a French woman with her daughter who must have been 10 years old and they were having a discussion about the girl's appearance. And for all we know, the woman and her daughter could have been fluent in Arabic and known what they were saying. It was so rude.
But then you also have the women who get on the train and shout the du'a al-rukab and expect everyone to join them in it or act really offended. They do it to bother the Christians I think some of the time.
Then there was an ad I saw plastered in the women's car for hair lengthening products, and the ad said it was for hijabis only! So they only would do business with someone they knew wasn't going to show her longer hair to someone other than her husband?
I remember being in some online group where there were some women discussing some picnic they had attended in a park that was across the street from some apartment buildings. One woman was complaining that it was a bad location for a picnic because someone on the 5th floor of one of the nearby buildings might have seen her face when she lifted her niqab to eat something! That was just too much for me. I think I quit the group after that. Just did not want to deal with people who think it is more important to cover their faces than engage in activities that are necessary for survival like eating and drinking.
I guess I see it differently. If they want to wear it, it's no skin off my nose. Whatever the reason. As long as they aren't forced.
And, Ebikatsu, did you ever think they may have been staring at you because they thought you were pretty? Just out of curiousity, how did you know they were staring at you if they were covered?
On one visit on the train from Cairo to Luxor, my friend went to smoke with the other men and this little old lady came and sat down beside me (in a half empty car) and just stared at me sweetly. I thought maybe she was Christian as she had on a lace scarf on her head but not covered. She just stared right into my face nonstop with a sweet smile. I kept trying to motion for my friend to come back but, not liking to translate between women, he ignored me. She got off at the next stop so I never discovered why she thought I was so interesting...or not.
And, Ebikatsu, did you ever think they may have been staring at you because they thought you were pretty? Just out of curiousity, how did you know they were staring at you if they were covered?
On one visit on the train from Cairo to Luxor, my friend went to smoke with the other men and this little old lady came and sat down beside me (in a half empty car) and just stared at me sweetly. I thought maybe she was Christian as she had on a lace scarf on her head but not covered. She just stared right into my face nonstop with a sweet smile. I kept trying to motion for my friend to come back but, not liking to translate between women, he ignored me. She got off at the next stop so I never discovered why she thought I was so interesting...or not.
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- Glyphdoctor
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If the male accompanying the two women in niqab was staring at her too, it definitely was a case of no manners. If he was really respectable and not just dressed that way for show, he would definitely have acted like he was on a London subway and lowered his eyes rather than stare at Ebikatsu. Like I said, I've seen a lot of hostile and rude behavior on the metro that is religiously motivated. That's another reason I prefer buses over the metro. People mind their own business and treat eachother with respect more on the bus than they do on the metro.
Last edited by Glyphdoctor on Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Some interesting takes on the subject in these posts, I am all in favour of a woman adopting her national dress or costume or even dressing for a degree of modesty but these people are extreme. For example the Hijab can look very attractive and is a frame to the face and if it is within their custom to not reveal too much hair then so be it. It is only the same as a Western woman not wishing to reveal a lot of cleavage, it is a modesty choice.
What is interesting is the phenomenon reported by observers in Iran, that the more the population believed that a regime change was imminent due to the elections, the more hair was being revealed by the women. Now it appears that as the mullahs have asserted their control again, the hair is being covered again to comply with what was stricter religious interpretations, so in that case it can be seen where the influence is coming from, namely the men.
What is interesting is the phenomenon reported by observers in Iran, that the more the population believed that a regime change was imminent due to the elections, the more hair was being revealed by the women. Now it appears that as the mullahs have asserted their control again, the hair is being covered again to comply with what was stricter religious interpretations, so in that case it can be seen where the influence is coming from, namely the men.
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I say good on Sarkozy, I don't think women should be permitted, expected or allowed to wear a Burqa in Western countries HOWEVER I cannot see a problem with the wearing of the Hijab.
If it's all about modesty and not encouraging or exciting/enticing the opposite sex then why just show the eyes?
Hello..... I'd say that eyes are the most seductive part of a person and the tool most used in flirtation so why not just wear Sunglasses
If it's all about modesty and not encouraging or exciting/enticing the opposite sex then why just show the eyes?
Hello..... I'd say that eyes are the most seductive part of a person and the tool most used in flirtation so why not just wear Sunglasses
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