Another Balloon Tragedy

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Horus
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Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by Horus »

The terrible events of the balloon crash in Luxor Egypt early this morning are starting to become more clear, images show the basket completely burned out and the metal framework crumpled, with propane cylinders scattered nearby in the cane fields. 18 people are reported as dead. Reports from a Doctor Hany Sabry at Luxor hospital say that the pilot an Egyptian national has 70% burns, two British national are in a critical condition, one believed to be Scottish and a further two have died.


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Re: Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by Horus »

No doubt we will be treated to all the other companies saying how safe their own balloon flights are and the overall risk of balloon flights will be minimised in the interest of maintaining business. I have done several myself and thoroughly enjoyed every moment, but this does bring home the reality and the risks involved. Overall Egypt has a very poor safety record with incidents in 2007, 2008 & 2009 so this will certainly not help their tourism in any way as this may turn out to be the biggest hot balloon air disaster of all time. As usual we will get all of the arguments about who is the safest operator and to be honest that means very little. If the overall standards, inspections and safety procedures are so lax that any individual operator can be criticised as being worse than another, then how are we to believe that any of them fully comply?
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Re: Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by Kiya »

Its a very very sad tragedy!
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Re: Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by LovelyLadyLux »

Any incident such as this is tragic and my heart goes out to all the families at home who had members travelling to Egypt.

I have never been on a balloon ride anywhere and remember seeing the balloons rising in the morning as I was en route to VOK. Have to admit I was tempted BUT honestly what stopped me way back when were safety concerns. I've been in taxis and on buses in Egypt that were held together by a shoe string so I couldn't imagine that the balloons would be rigourously inspected and everything kept up to par hence I never did go on a ride. Just too high up in the air with no options for escape if anything happens and, to be honest, I have little to no confidence in the expertise of any of the Egyptian people working in tourism. Sorry to say but my feeling is that most working in tourism would say or do anything to make a dollar. They have to as their skill set for earning is very low, families need feeding and any spare piasters don't necessarily go for maintenance of cars, buses, taxis, balloons, fellucas, caleches etc. Workmanship always seems to be called into question so to me anything that would require specialized work/maintenance isn't really going to be kept up.

It really is sad as tourism in Egypt needs all the help it can get right now but methinks this accident is going to again be another nail in the coffin. I have no idea how many families (Egyptan and Expat) are connected to balloon rides but am fairly certain this incident is going to have serious repercussions for them. Hopefully those involved in ballooning will have other ventures they can turn to.
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Re: Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by Horus »

I have to agree with most of what you say LLL, sadly this will just turn out to be another 'accident' with a promise to act on the results of the enquiry. To create a fireball in a basket that was comming in to land you have to come to the conclusion that there was a massive escape of propane gas that ignited, how this could happen is debatable, but my guess is on a severed delivery pipe or the neck of a regulator being snapped off probably by a trailing landing rope becomming entangled. If this is the case then it is still not an accident in my book, it was a practice that had an accident waiting to happen regardless of which balloon company it was. :(
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Re: Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by LovelyLadyLux »

I'm not smart enough/informed enough of technical details to even begin to guess at what could have happened BUT something extremely serious DID happen with life altering repercussions that will span out to include hundreds.

I hate to say it but when it comes to Egypt I'm suspicious of most everything. On an on-going basis there have been fires on the cruise ships, crashes with the trains (I was in one), bus accidents etc etc etc with most of these 'incidents' being severe. I'm just not up to playing roulette with my own personal safety. I fully understand the 'standards' in Egypt are different, lifestyle is different, what will be will be, fate rules, Allah is in charge blah blah blah so I've always put ME in charge of me. I WILL talk up when bus drivers are speeding, I WILL get out of a taxi I don't deem safe and I will refuse to go on, get on or ride in anything that doesn't look "adequate" and by this I mean in good working order.

I was in flats where those old propane bottles gave me cause for alarm every time I turned the stove on.

Lots of workmanship in Egypt IS substandard. There are lots of stories on these forums of shoddy workmanship re: any maintenance tasks detailing how workmen in Egypt gummed something together. Point of fact is that I do not intend to be the 'victim' of somebody elses unskilled untrained non-knowledge.

Dunno what happened to cause this tragedy. Hopefully this accident was not caused by negligence. The families of all the victims will have enough burden to bear and knowing a loved one was lost to them due to negligence will only compound their pain.

I also hope that everybody and all those who are desperately trying to make Luxor "safe" will not take chances and short cuts in attempts to prove their point. An investigation needs to be conducted, recommendations made and implemented. Long term monitoring also needs to be put in place by skilled and trained specialists.
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Re: Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by Horus »

During most of my working life the Health & Safety enforcement would fall under my control, so it was your legal duty to see that it was obeyed and enforced. It was not my full time job, it was just one of those things that was placed within your job remit of senior management, however you were fully and legally accountable under the full weight of the law for any serious breaches of it and could be imprisoned if proven to have been negligent. Over the years there is one thing that I have learned, with almost zero exceptions "Accidents do not happen, they are caused". If you get to the route of all 'accidents' you will find a reason and a way it could have been avoided, it may have involved a degree of bad luck, but research it hard enough and you will find an actual cause that was avoidable. The other thing that complicates things is something that we used to refer to as "minds of men" in other words their attitude to the risk, a bit like not putting on your seat belt because you are only going a short distance, disregarding the fact that a collision happens in the length of your vehicle on any given section of road and at any given time, the point it happens is indeterminable, therefore 10 metres or a thousand miles, it does not matter as the risk is exactly the same in both distances for one collision to occur. Worse still is when people become fatalistic, "if it happens, it happens" or "it is the will of god" that is even worse as it transfers the onus onto someone else and attempts too negate yourself from any responsibility, when you have that sort of mentality then there is little chance of safety measures being a high priority or being implemented with any zeal. 8)
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Re: Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by Grandad »

Like you H, I too had some health and safety responsibility as one the 'hats' I wore as an executive manager. In my case it was for the risk assessment of all processes carried on within the company. Those processes included some very heavy and potentially dangerous plant.

The risk assessment involved asking questions about every aspect of each process usually on a 'what if' basis. We then had to attach some rating of the risk and to implement actions to reduce that risk.

It is being reported, but so far unsubstantiated I believe, that as the balloon was coming down to land, men on the ground took hold of the landing lines as is their usual practice. One of these lines fouled the gas supply pipe from the gas bottle to the burner, fracturing it and causing a high level of gas in the atmosphere which ignighted causing the balloon to rapidly ascend with the fire spreading inside the basket.

In the investigation it is precisely that sort of risk that should be identified and should also have been identified in any previous risk assessments if indeed any have been carried out.

Whatever the outcome of the investigations this will probably go down as the worst ever hot air balloon accident (or as you suggest, preventable incident).
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Re: Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by LovelyLadyLux »

What you say Grandad is interesting that the balloon was landing and men had the lines cause here it was reported that at 1000 ft in the air (which makes no sense to me) the balloon came into contact with lines.......(couldn't figure what LINES any balloon would come into contact with that were 1000' in the air? Your explanation makes more sense.........so this would mean that while the balloon was landing it went back UP?

I get what you're saying exactly H. Risk is risk no matter where and accidents just don't randomly happen. There IS always a cause.

I feel really badly all 'round about this happening as so many are so desperate in Luxor to impress the world that they are ok when any rational thinking mind knows that Egypt is not stable right now. Kinda like the kid with their hand in the cookie jar denying they are taking a cookie - everybody can see the actual circumstances and knows exactly what is going on yet the child naively believes they can convince all viewing them they do not have their fingers in the jar.

I've travelled over the years to other 3rd world countries and I don't take safety lightly. Egypt isn't the ONLY place I make specific choices in about what I get on and where I go. Trinidad comes to mind as LOTS of taxis and buses there are accidents waiting to happen. The Cancun area of Mexico on the Caribbean side is pretty good. ALL resources are going into making this part of Mexico a supreme, safe holiday destination and I have to say that for the most part ALL vehicles, rides (zip lines are really big there where you can go zipping along the top of the jungle) are safe. This is NOT necessarily true of eastern Mexico which is much more established and older. You CAN see the ground through the floor boards of the buses and I'd hazard LOTS of accidents are just waiting to happen.

Egypt and Luxor will survive. The road has just gotten a little bit longer with a few more bumps.
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Re: Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by Horus »

I reckon that when it is all fully investigated you will find that although it is a natural reaction when engulfed in flames to try and get out of the way of them, sadly I think that this in itself may have contributed to the balloon suddenly gaining height. The sudden loss of (lets guess) maybe 25 to 30 stone of weight from the basket would make it rise significantly, added to that the extra heat of the exploding propane gas, most of which would have entered the balloon envelope were all contributing factors, but ........................ the bottom line is that the rope becomming entangled in the first place is a no, no. The correct proceedure should have been that the guide ropes are attached to the underside or sides and are released from the side of the basket, however it looks as if the ropes were thrown down from somewhere above cylinder height in order for them to snag a gas pipe or regulator as this would be impossible with a rope attached below the top of the basket.
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Re: Another Balloon Tragedy

Post by LovelyLadyLux »

Actually H until you said it now I hadn't considered the effect of people jumping out but yeah - if suddenly the weight in the basket lightened UP it would go. Such a tragedy all 'round.

On another note though - I have found that tourists or humans travelling in a pack sometimes are not as aware or astute as they need to be (Not that I'm trying to imply in any way shape or form that these people are in this category) mostly just an observation that sometimes tourists are so caught up in their holiday they just take for granted and accept anything presented to them to the complete disregard for their own safety. Again - not referencing this situation but sometimes over-crowding where way too many people cram into a venue with no thought or consideration as to what they'd do in the event of an emergency AND the Owners also allow this.
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