Did another War start? (Libya)

Post by **LovelyLadyLux** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:35 pm

Was out and about yesterday and when I turned the telly on I was hit with a barrage of News as to what was being bombed, when, how, by what and on and on.....

This is like deja vu cause in my lifetime I've seen this start several times and it is a queasy feeling.

I abhor that anybody is firing on anybody but Gadhafi seems nonplus'd at firing and slaughtering his own people so cause of moral humanitarian sentiment France, UK, USA etc move in and 'take over'......

I should've probably posted this in the Rants section cause this does make me feel like pulling my hair out. What does the world do when a situation, in this case Libya, devolves to possibly genocidal actions by a manical dictator? IF another war is actually started will it be decades (as in Afghanistan) before it ends.

I've often heard this theory expressed that maybe it is best to 'go in' and lay scorched earth and then 'pull out' on the threat of coming back. What is more humane? Is it really better to become an occupying force prolonging 'the fight' for years and traumatizing everybody for a pro-longed time (as in Iraq) or is it better to go in hard and forcefully then pull out? I have so solution, am possibly not even expressing it well.

Is there a 'best case' scenerio?

Post by **Horus** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:15 pm

I felt the same when it started to become obvious that we were about to get involved once more as the worlds policeman. My problem with all this is that before too long we will once again become the bad guys who are only doing it for oil.

While we keep out, people in Libya and other Arab countries condemn us for doing nothing to help them overthrow Gaddafi and stop him killing his people. However I am prepared to put money on it that it will not be very long before another country in the area starts talking about Crusades, of imposing our will on others, Western occupation, killing civilians and all the other rhetoric that seems to go with it.

What would I do? quite frankly I would do nothing.
There are the Arab League Countries, comprising of:
Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Egypt, Algeria, Qatar, Kuwait, Morocco, Iraq, Sudan, Syria, Oman, Tunisia, Lebanon, Yemen, Jordan, Bahrain, Palestinian territories, Mauritania, Somalia, Djibouti, & Comoros, if we exclude Libya from the list.

Not all of them would be in position to offer much assistance, but the majority have proved themselves well capable in the past of having and maintaining an army and air force and of using them when it suited their politics to do so. Therefore it should be the responsibility of these countries to act on Libya and not us, if they want him out, or the people protected, then they should be the ones to do it. That way they will have no future problems that they did not create themselves and more importantly, no one else to blame, we should keep out and stay out!

Post by **Christine** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:25 pm

I agree Horus, when Egypt erupted on 25th January we all said let egypt sort out egypt and they did.
I dont believe for a moment that we are getting involved from a humanitarian angle, im more inclined to be thinking that the UK is involved to save face, keeping up appearances so to speak, and throwing our weight little that it is behind mightier forces.
Our government has talked tough and now feels obliged to back that up.
I dont condone what gadaffi is doing to his people but i dont think we should be involved in this war, (because thats what it is) in this way.
There are as you say plenty of Arab nations with the resourses to do the job of policing this situation and acting on it .

Post by **LovelyLadyLux** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:27 pm

Horus and Christine you're summing up exactly many of my own feelings. IS this REALLY for humanitarian reasons? Nobody cared much about Somalia, Rwanda etc - but - oh gee - let me see - NO oil.

Right now we're the 'saviours' (so to speak) but in short order we're going to be the war mongering West who wants to impose our will etc etc etc

Seems the Arab league isn't about to take the lead on this and shouldn't they?

I almost sometimes think that UK, USA, France, whomever get into these situations just to give their troops some validity for being. Lets the Brass see how their troops have learn'd.......

ohhhhhh I dunno - I just have a feeling that once we're IN there will never be an opportunity for years to move back out. The Libyans will now never be free of us but 'we' have moved one step closer to black gold and can now come up with a bizzillion reasons to stay there...monitoring.....forever.....using all sorts of weapons.....UGH!!! NOT GOOD at ALL. None of this is.

Post by **Horus** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:08 pm

I have to comment on the oil issue, I don’t think that as far as the UK is concerned at least that oil really comes into it. Libya is a very small producer in world terms at about 2% and the UK does not rely on it, the Italians have a more vested interest in Libyan oil than we do.

I do believe that our government is doing what it considers to be the right thing in trying to protect the protesters and has probably been pushed in that direction by comments from the Arab states about Western inactivity. However we are already starting to see the cracks appearing with Amr Moussa, Secretary-General of the Arab League, condemning "the bombardment of civilians", so it is already starting to become our problem.

I would make it very clear that from a UK perspective that the next time we are criticised for our actions by any Arab League member we will withdraw from the UN resolution and remove all our aircraft, then lay the outcome of future events in Libya at that particular league member's door. Their combined air forces easily outnumber any cobbled together (UN) no fly zone enforcement aircraft, therefore they should be doing the enforcing themselves. Previous attempts have shown that we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t, better then that we are damned for doing nothing than to once again set ourselves up as the fall guys for doing other nations dirty work for them.

Post by **BillH** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:34 pm

Well said Horus

This is all about Cameron trying to raise his International profile.

The Libyan people should have been left to fight their own fight.

The savage irony of all this is that while Britain is yet to feel the impact of the Austerity measures that are about to kick in and ALL our services are about to further degrade, ie. Schools, NHS, Police, etc. due to lack of funding, the moment our bloody politicians get the sniff of the chance of a war, there's suddenly an open cheque book to fund it. No discussions, no chance for the people to have their say !

And you dear people think that these revolutions cant happen here in the west ? It's only a matter of time.. Britain is already a fascist state. Its' just that most have not realised it yet, because there are too many "do gooders" out there convincing us that our degraded freedoms are for the good of the people and we should allow and have allowed these demons to run amok !!

Post by **Christine** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:12 pm

Both of your'e comments BillH ref Cameron trying to raise his international profile and Lybia being left to Lybians were my points exactly, its interesting to see how your'e mind works, i had thought of blank cheques as well when i replied to this post earlier, but in my head it occured to me that yes we will or rather THEY will write the cheques but its us who will foot the bill in actuality, when our beloved government cry poverty yet again and blame it on a war no-one wanted

Post by **BillH** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:30 pm

..And don't forget the Banks that created the mess we are in with their "False Economy"
The same banks that fund the wars

Money really is the root of all evil, I do pity those who worship it..

Post by **JOJO** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:49 pm

So what are the 'UN' going to do about the King of Bahrain allowing Saudi troops in to attack his people?

He as an invitation for a certain Royal wedding.....and if he is allowed to attend then I'll be protesting outside Westminster Abbey!!

Post by **BillH** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:42 pm

To be honest, this whole business, post the Libya uprising stinks of corruption, and I am not talking about Gaddafi.. It's been like that since 1988.

I have not seen any planes bombing it's own people, and when you consider that every man and his dog in the world has a mobile phone, I would have expected to see something along those lines. We saw everything coming out of all the other countries, no ?
Even the Russians who have Libya under close surveillence say they have no evidence of this either..I could be wrong..

Post by **Christine** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:31 pm

Now where ahve we all heard this before .............hmmm

Post by **Grandad** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:45 pm

I was sickened when I listened to Cameron trying to explain and justify our involvement and the 'need' for this action

Almost a carbon copy of the words spoken by that other pumped up 'stuffed shirt' Blair exactly 8 years ago.

They didn't consider the long term effects of the invasion then and they have not taken into account the long term effects this time either.....Will they never learn?

It is reported that Special Services are already on the ground directing the air attacks by pinpointing targets.....how long before the UN resolution is twisted to justify the landing of troops on the ground?

Here we go again...........

Post by **BillH** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:53 pm

I made a shortened version of that comment on the Internet elsewhere yesterday Christine..

or are you refering to the situation in general.. ?

There's something deeply suspicious about that terrible night in '88, not just the destruction of "Princess of the Sky", and I still have not fathomed it out yet..
I know that Magrahe scared the authorities in this country and got his release.

War is a dirty business, and it makes some people very rich while us poor sods do the dying for reasons we dont understand. yet the ******** that start the wars stay safe at home.. I'm sure there was a poem along those lines.

Post by **Christine** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:14 pm

[quote="BillH"]I made a shortened version of that comment on the Internet elsewhere yesterday Christine..

or are you refering to the situation in general.. ?Quote="BillH" ]

Not sure what you are saying BillH, which situation? , as usual im a tad confused here !

Post by **BillH** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:22 pm

The situation in Libya Christine..
It seems different from the other uprisings wouldn't you say ?

After all, All dictators, evil or not so evil, they give up their dictatorship and usually end up in South America, sipping cocktails on the beach, with big fat bank accounts.. That's usually what happens, Amin, Pinochet, Mubarak and Ben Ali (probably)

Post by **Christine** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:33 pm

Its different in as much we are told that many more ahve died, we are also told that gadaffi is still in control, but i begin to wonder if this is in name only, as i thought when Mubarak lost the plot, and it was his henchmen, sorry government officials who were really in control and may have been for years for all we know, its also different because this has NOT been a libyian issue left to the Libyian people, the outcome of which had this all been handled differently from the get go could have resembled whats happened in Egypt, am i making sense?
So yes in many ways its different to some extent, but reminiscent of other wars we got involved in when really we should have just stayed right out of it.

Post by **BillH** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:40 am

Gaddafi built Libya up into the country it is today, unlike many leaders who are simply corrupt and only interested in what they can get out of being leader to feather their nest at the expense of the People.

Libya has good rates of pay by comparison to it's neighbours and brings many jobs to other countries, eg there are or were 1 Million Egyptians working in Libya.

While I am sure Gaddafi has a bob or two to spare, he has to play a delicate game of balancing freedom with security of both himself and his people.

The people of Libya were coerced into civil war on the back of the riots that were going on in Africa at the time. Teh country had been infiltrated by a concerned party and helped arm the rebels while whispering in their ear how easy it would be to topple Gaddafi.
Where did the weapons and training come from ?
Why is it taking so long to oust Gaddafi if this is a "Popular" uprising ?

America want Gaddafi out. If he were to go, and I hope that he does not, then Libya would just have a Mubarak type government and they will be worse off than ever before.
The Americans have never got over Lockerbie. People in the UK knew that that plane was coming down that night and roughly where it was going to fall out of the sky.
The fact that Libya took responsibility for this cowardly act is something that Gaddafi must have regretted since 1988.
Magrahi was not freed on compassionate grounds, that's for sure..

This will eventually become a fully blown war.. "We" have already taken the rebels side and given them equipment and dropped bombs on the Government forces. It will escalate, and that was obvious from day 1.

Post by **Horus** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:47 pm

Bill wrote:

People in the UK knew that that plane was coming down that night and roughly where it was going to fall out of the sky.

Did they ??????????????? that is a strange statement to make.

Post by **BillH** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:50 pm

Horus wrote:Bill wrote:
People in the UK knew that that plane was coming down that night and roughly where it was going to fall out of the sky.

Did they ??????????????? that is a strange statement to make.

I knew someone on the ground that night Horus.. The necessary S&R equipment had quite literally been flown up only hours before to certain army and Air force Bases in the North of England and Scotland..

I held that man in my arms during the time he told me about this, he was crying uncontrollably.

Politics, both Local and Global is such a dirty business.

Post by **Horus** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:17 pm

If your friend is implying that people knew that the plane would blow up he is talking utter rubbish, unlike your friend I spent more than ten years of my life involved in the aftermath of that particular event and no one could have predicted where that aircraft would explode or where it would eventually come down, sorry to say that is fact and not some wild speculation.