Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Reporting and discussing local, national and international news items.

Moderators: DJKeefy, 4u Network

User avatar
LovelyLadyLux
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 11499
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:12 pm
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 421 times
Been thanked: 2648 times
Canada

Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:59 pm

Watching in Horror - can't believe my eyes as I see on the TV News that Notre Dam is on FIRE and there is NO fire brigaide.

A world relic burning to the ground in front of our eyes with no apparent attempts to put the fire out!

Can't believe this tragedy is happening. World history going up in smoke ............



User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1661 times
Been thanked: 2228 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Horus » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:40 pm

I blame it on Brexit!
And I agree about the apparent lack of any immediate action, I watched it burning for over an hour with just a few water hoses being aimed at the inside of the building. Now I know that Trump is often mocked for his tweets and this time was no different when he asked why they had not water bombed it with a plane, well to be honest I was asking myself the same question, why didn’t they?
OK the fabric of the building is somewhat fragile and no one is talking about a 747 Jumbo dumping hundreds of tons in a direct hit, but helicopters are used regularly to drop smaller concentrated hits on things like forest and bush fires and it works very well. Add to that the fact that it is surrounded by water as it is located on a small island in the Seine the water pick-up was easy and several helicopters flying over and strategically dumping would have done more to have saved the structure and put out that inferno after the spire and roof collapsed than playing a few water hoses on the blaze. Lets face it even water bombing would have resulted in less damage. No doubt their useless president will make great capital out of the disaster in the hope that it plays down his own internal protest problems from the yellow jackets, I have heard that there is already a planning application being submitted for a new mosque on the site.
Image

User avatar
LovelyLadyLux
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 11499
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:12 pm
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 421 times
Been thanked: 2648 times
Canada

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:30 am

When I saw it I thought exactly the same thing - why is it just burning with no apparent Fire Department efforts and why are they not water bombing it? Small helicopters could have dropped sufficient water to have quelled it down to a manageable size.

I also wondered IF it was allowed to burn - a deliberate burn - as part of essentially a yellow vest protest against Macron?

User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1661 times
Been thanked: 2228 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Horus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:01 am

These days who knows what can happen.
Image

User avatar
Grandad
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 6816
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: South East UK
Has thanked: 747 times
Been thanked: 2179 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Grandad » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:00 am

LLL, I would doubt if your suggestion that Notre Dame was ALLOWED to burn is at all likely.
What does strike me is how fires in ancient buildings can spread so quickly. Windsor Castle, and the Mackintosh School of Art in Glasgow are two examples that come to mind.
I certainly agree that water bombing may have reduced the extent of the damage. The stone fabric of the building seems to have survived, the roof and timber structures can be replaced. The sad thing is the loss of irreplaceable artifacts from within.

One of my pictures from 2012 showing the tall spire that was shown dramatically collapsing in flames on TV
10320
:gg:

User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1661 times
Been thanked: 2228 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Horus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:00 am

One problem that may yet reveal itself is that most stone when subjected to extreme heat can become soft or damaged in some way. It may look OK on a superficial basis but it may have caused many structural problems with the building itself. Lime for example is made by subjecting Limestone to extreme heat and it turns into a soft powdery material. It also looks like two French billionaires have pledged enough money (300 million Euro) to rebuild it.
Image

User avatar
Grandad
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 6816
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: South East UK
Has thanked: 747 times
Been thanked: 2179 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Grandad » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:23 pm

I was thinking the same about the stone Horus. I heard on the news that the stained glass windows suffered when the lead melted.
:gg:

User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1661 times
Been thanked: 2228 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Horus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:15 pm

All of the windows have gone apart from the centre one, but I believe that they are not of any great age as they were all earlier restorations. They are now saying that the stone structures are undamaged, but I would reserve that judgement until they have made a full structural survey myself. At least there does not seem to be any shortage of funds to restore everything.
Image

User avatar
Hurghadapat
Member
Member
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:24 pm
Location: Hurghada now UK
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 38 times
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Hurghadapat » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:26 pm

If you read through this article it explains the problems they faced and also why they didn't or couldn't water bomb the fire.........https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -Dame.html

User avatar
LovelyLadyLux
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 11499
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:12 pm
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 421 times
Been thanked: 2648 times
Canada

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by LovelyLadyLux » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:43 pm

@HurghadaPat - interesting read and what is presented does make sense to me. My first thought too was also why not use the fire bombers? I fully understood you wouldn't want the huge Mars water bomber type aircraft used for mass spreading on forest fires but I did think that small helicopters dropping water and/or fire retardant would have been useful. Was just my thinking as I watched on TV "nothing" seemingly happening as the Cathedral burned.

I definitely hope it can be restored and I also hope that, as Horus says, the stone work is OK and not in danger of crumbling.

User avatar
Hurghadapat
Member
Member
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:24 pm
Location: Hurghada now UK
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 38 times
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Hurghadapat » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:54 am

@LLL.......Firefighting using helicopters is not a precision business as it would be difficult to position the helicopters directly overhead due to the intense heat and the turbulence produced. For safety, the helicopters have to fly higher, which reduces efficiency due to winds,also helicopters produce a terrific amount of down draught which would have fanned the flames and spread the fire even faster.

User avatar
Grandad
Egyptian Pharaoh
Egyptian Pharaoh
Posts: 6816
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: South East UK
Has thanked: 747 times
Been thanked: 2179 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Grandad » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:32 pm

I think what the former St Louis firefighter, Gregg Favre, says makes a lot of sense. Pat's comments also illustrate what a difficult and imprecise process water bombing is. OK for forest fires maybe but not for precision 'bombing' for all the reasons that Pat mentions.
I don't know how the roof of Notre Dame was constructed but if it was anything like my own Cathedral in Canterbury, then attacking the fire would have been virtually impossible.
In Canterbury the roof structure is timber. below this is a floor and under that is the ornate plaster vaulted ceiling. Hence there is an entirely timber 'tunnel' which when alight would spread the fire along its length. There would be no way of getting water into the roof space until the roof collapsed by which time there would be no chance of recovery of any of the roof.
Here is a poor picture of people in the roof space and the view of the vaulted Quire Stalls ceiling from below.
up-in-the-cathedral-roof.jpg
canterbury-cathedral-main-church-roof.jpg
Considering the location of Notre Dame on a small island I do believe that the Parisian firefighters did all that could be possibly hoped to save as much of the building and its contents as possible.The blessing is that nobody died and, as far as I know just one firefighter was injured. Hope he/she makes a speedy recovery. :up
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
:gg:

User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1661 times
Been thanked: 2228 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Horus » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:41 pm

I am still out on the water bombing option, most people are confusing water 'bombing' with using helicopters who only scoop up several tons at a time but can accurately dump their load. If you study how most cathedrals were constructed then you will see that the majority have vaulted ceilings and wooden timber roofs clad in lead sheets. As well as looking nice a vaulted stone arch was a major feature by the builders as a fire protection for the timber roof above, those medieval masons knew a thing or two. An arch is one of the strongest building designs known as when it has a compressive weight above it projects this load outwards onto the supporting walls, Had they dropped water at an early stage they would not IMO have caused as much damage as they ended up having because the collapsing roof parcially crashed through one of the vaults below allowing the fire to burn inside the cathedral itself, thus causing more damage to the vaulted roof and internal walls than any amount of water dumpted on the top in the initial stages of the fire would have done.
Image

User avatar
Hurghadapat
Member
Member
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:24 pm
Location: Hurghada now UK
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 38 times
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Hurghadapat » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:01 pm

Some more very interesting information as to how the roof was constructed............https://nationalpost.com/news/world/one ... the-forest

User avatar
Horus
Egypt4u God
Egypt4u God
Posts: 12363
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:15 am
Location: UK
Has thanked: 1661 times
Been thanked: 2228 times
Gender:
United Kingdom

Re: Notre Dame!!!!!!!!!

Post by Horus » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:23 pm

Amazing how much timber was required, they would have to look far and wide to try and source that amount.
Image

  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post
  • Grenfell Tower & Notre Dame
    by LovelyLadyLux » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:34 pm » in General Discussions and Rants
    4 Replies
    1018 Views
    Last post by LovelyLadyLux
    Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:50 pm
  • Notre Dam & Hammers
    by LovelyLadyLux » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:07 pm » in General Discussions and Rants
    4 Replies
    1378 Views
    Last post by Horus
    Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:37 pm